Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 5302]

What has May ever done to demonstrate being a good negotiator?

 

What has Gove said to make it clear that he always believed in brexit?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 22177]

May deservedly looks the front runner at the moment. Boris supporters are unlikely to vote for a treacherous snake now.

[NJS 4411]

Gove: "I go with my heart" - what heart - you're a fucking tory ffs. Pure slimeball.

[Renton 22004]

May deservedly looks the front runner at the moment. Boris supporters are unlikely to vote for a treacherous snake now.

And nor should they. He has knived the PM and the PM elect in the back! He's a treacherous gutter snake. Also looks weird, mind, that seems to be a prerequisite for a senior cabinet member nowadays.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Renton

[Meenzer 15731]

 

Fair

[Christmas Tree 4840]

What has May ever done to demonstrate being a good negotiator?

 

What has Gove said to make it clear that he always believed in brexit?

Based mainly on what journalists / MP's have said about each one. There dealings with them and observations.

[Dickie 0]

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I find this article a bit unsettling - what about the 52 per cent who voted out? A lot of them are clearly fucked off with the way things are, otherwise they wouldn't have voted to change it, and it's quite clear that this crisis has been years in the making - i.e. during the years when the author was going to raves and "becoming lecturers, nurses, systems analysts and engineers". Aye let's just go back to the way things were and ignore the existence of the 52 per cent of people in this country who don't think like us and we'll let Murdoch et al continue to decide our futures. I voted Remain by the way, mainly for the same selfish reasons as the author. i.e. to safeguard my own career and relatively comfortable existence, but to say we want things to go back to how they were is pretty contemptuous of the people who have let it be known that they want some fundamental changes.

[Rayvin 5302]

Based mainly on what journalists / MP's have said about each one. There dealings with them and observations.

 

Ah so, unsubstantiated claims then. They could both be utter pillocks for all we know.

[Rayvin 5302]

 

I find this article a bit unsettling - what about the 52 per cent who voted out? A lot of them are clearly fucked off with the way things are, otherwise they wouldn't have voted to change it, and it's quite clear that this crisis has been years in the making - i.e. during the years when the author was going to raves and "becoming lecturers, nurses, systems analysts and engineers". Aye let's just go back to the way things were and ignore the existence of the 52 per cent of people in this country who don't think like us and we'll let Murdoch et al continue to decide our futures. I voted Remain by the way, mainly for the same selfish reasons as the author. i.e. to safeguard my own career and relatively comfortable existence, but to say we want things to go back to how they were is pretty contemptuous of the people who have let it be known that they want some fundamental changes.

 

I think the reasoning for most of us is that those who voted out mostly had very valid concerns and issues that had not been addressed for many years, and that a reaction to this was understandable. However, they have not positively changed their lives with this vote - if anything they'll have made them harder. They've not really considered this though, instead choosing to ignore everyone who more or less said 'your lives will be harder if you do this' in favour of taking the opportunity to lash out at foreigners/protest the government.

 

They are not going to get their change. They are going to lose jobs, see underinvestment in local economies, and ultimately no restoration of the 'Britain' they think they're bringing back. I can't think of any scenario here other than the same group of people becoming more disillusioned as time goes on.

 

The real villain they should be lashing out at, but which so many foolishly voted for, is austerity.

[Dickie 0]

 

I think the reasoning for most of us is that those who voted out mostly had very valid concerns and issues that had not been addressed for many years, and that a reaction to this was understandable. However, they have not positively changed their lives with this vote - if anything they'll have made them harder. They've not really considered this though, instead choosing to ignore everyone who more or less said 'your lives will be harder if you do this' in favour of taking the opportunity to lash out at foreigners/protest the government.

 

They are not going to get their change. They are going to lose jobs, see underinvestment in local economies, and ultimately no restoration of the 'Britain' they think they're bringing back. I can't think of any scenario here other than the same group of people becoming more disillusioned as time goes on.

 

The real villain they should be lashing out at, but which so many foolishly voted for, is austerity.

 

I completely agree, I just thought the sentiment of the letter. i.e. "let's go back to a time when me and my mates were alright, nevermind the other 52 per cent of the country" was a bit arrogant to say the least

[Christmas Tree 4840]

 

Ah so, unsubstantiated claims then. They could both be utter pillocks for all we know.

dear me.

 

No more like first hand accounts from journalists from left and right who get up close and personal with these people over many years.

 

I much prefer getting a balanced view unlike some who happily lap up everything the Guardian or the Sun says.

[Alex 35595]

Based mainly on what journalists / MP's have said about each one. There dealings with them and observations.

The establishment choice, in other words. Not that you'd expect anything else.

[Alex 35595]

dear me.

 

No more like first hand accounts from journalists from left and right who get up close and personal with these people over many years.

 

I much prefer getting a balanced view unlike some who happily lap up everything the Guardian or the Sun says.

Or they're arselicking because they think she'll win.

[Rayvin 5302]

dear me.

 

No more like first hand accounts from journalists from left and right who get up close and personal with these people over many years.

 

I much prefer getting a balanced view unlike some who happily lap up everything the Guardian or the Sun says.

 

The Guardian has been pretty balanced on both Gove and May. I don't think they've said anything either way on that front, it's all been neutral so far.

 

I didn't say they were utter pillocks by the way, I just said that given the current state of our media, and the apparent trustworthiness of politicians, we know absolutely fuck all about how capable these two are.

[Christmas Tree 4840]

The establishment choice, in other words. Not that you'd expect anything else.

I'm not sure what you mean? I don't read newspapers and probably watch / listen to more politics on here than most whether that's Newsnight / Daily politics / Question time / Andrew Marr etc.

 

For example the journo doing the Newsnight piece on Gove last night was an FT journalist that "he says" tried to expose wrongdoings my Gove in 2012 and that Gove tried to get him sacked. So when a journo is coming from that background but includes stuff about Gove being well known for wanting to leave the EU for 20 odd years, then it seems pretty certain to me. Especially when many others back that up. (As appears not to be the case with Boris).

[Christmas Tree 4840]

 

The Guardian has been pretty balanced on both Gove and May. I don't think they've said anything either way on that front, it's all been neutral so far.

 

I didn't say they were utter pillocks by the way, I just said that given the current state of our media, and the apparent trustworthiness of politicians, we know absolutely fuck all about how capable these two are.

As I've mentioned above, I think it depends where you get your media intake from.

[Alex 35595]

I'm not sure what you mean? I don't read newspapers and probably watch / listen to more politics on here than most whether that's Newsnight / Daily politics / Question time / Andrew Marr etc.

 

For example the journo doing the Newsnight piece on Gove last night was an FT journalist that "he says" tried to expose wrongdoings my Gove in 2012 and that Gove tried to get him sacked. So when a journo is coming from that background but includes stuff about Gove being well known for wanting to leave the EU for 20 odd years, then it seems pretty certain to me. Especially when many others back that up. (As appears not to be the case with Boris).

Sorry, I thought you were referring to May. I think she is the establishment choice.

[Rayvin 5302]

 

I completely agree, I just thought the sentiment of the letter. i.e. "let's go back to a time when me and my mates were alright, nevermind the other 52 per cent of the country" was a bit arrogant to say the least

 

I see what you're saying - and I certainly think that's how the 52% will see it. Perhaps we (Remainers) should be more articulate on our views on this. I think the first few days were so jarring and, for me at least, filled with a profound sense of loss, that views weren't put across very well.

[Rayvin 5302]

As I've mentioned above, I think it depends where you get your media intake from.

 

I read the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Mail, and the Economist. Because, like you, I believe in a balanced view.

 

I still think we know nothing about how competent they are. In order to form an opinion we need proven track records of success. Gove certainly wasn't a success in education. May hasn't been a horrific home secretary, butshe's also made a number of question decisions regarding the police and clearly wants to erode civil rights with respect of privacy. That said, I do think she'd be a hard negotiator. I don't know if that's the same as being a good negotiator in the context of Europe though.

[Dr Gloom 22177]

 

I find this article a bit unsettling - what about the 52 per cent who voted out? A lot of them are clearly fucked off with the way things are, otherwise they wouldn't have voted to change it, and it's quite clear that this crisis has been years in the making - i.e. during the years when the author was going to raves and "becoming lecturers, nurses, systems analysts and engineers". Aye let's just go back to the way things were and ignore the existence of the 52 per cent of people in this country who don't think like us and we'll let Murdoch et al continue to decide our futures. I voted Remain by the way, mainly for the same selfish reasons as the author. i.e. to safeguard my own career and relatively comfortable existence, but to say we want things to go back to how they were is pretty contemptuous of the people who have let it be known that they want some fundamental changes.

Fair point.

 

I think the jist of the comment about why the middle aged remainers are venting on social media is fair enough.

[Christmas Tree 4840]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to May. I think she is the establishment choice.

I think she's very much the "same as Dave" candidate. I was merely commenting that she has a fairly good record as a fierce negotiator within government.

 

Gove on the other hand seems a more radical Tory. Great if the policies are good and not mad.

[Howmanheyman 33877]

Well well well, excellent speech by Grove.

 

Following through on all promises from the campaign including the£100 million a week extra for the NHS and removal of VAT on gas / electricity bills.

 

Going to be an interesting battle if the party forgives him for wielding the knife.

:lol:

[Alex 35595]

Gove seems to be the type of 'radical' that makes stuff up on the hoof, if his tenure as Education Secretary is anything to go by. Not to mention his being a key member of the 'we want to leave but we don't have a plan in place if we do' campaign.

[ewerk 31216]

Gove seems to be the type of 'radical' that makes stuff up on the hoof, if his tenure as Education Secretary is anything to go by. Not to mention his being a key member of the 'we want to leave but we don't have a plan in place if we do' campaign.

I'm not sure if it was posted here yesterday but still worth another look.

 

[Alex 35595]

Amazing