Europe --- In or Out

[zerosum 234]

Just now, Meenzer said:

 

But those options mean leaving the EU

 

Ok I mean just more willing to listen and give up more than what they did.

[Rayvin 5183]

3 minutes ago, zerosum said:

 

They didn’t exactly give Cameron that when he went to negotiate a better deal in the first place. If they had been so willing to give up like that to us, maybe the referendum would never have happened? That’s partly the problem, they should listen to individual countries concerns within the EU.

 

Yeah, not going to disagree on this. The EU wasn't exactly super helpful in the run up to this, including Merkel's 1 million Syrian refugees 3 months before the vote, but on the other side, we did have the best deal in Europe out of any other country in there already...

Edited September 5, 2019 by Rayvin

[Alex 34846]

39 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

Smoggie here just said he wants a no deal brexit.

 

Like a fucking Turkey voting for Christmas man

Piers Morgan told him it would be fine 

[zerosum 234]

47 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah, not going to disagree on this. The EU wasn't exactly super helpful in the run up to this, including Merkel's 1 million Syrian refugees 3 months before the vote, but on the other side, we did have the best deal in Europe out of any other country in there already...

 

Thats exactly it. They should have took the concerns of a large portion of our country onboard and gave us a bit more, we wouldn’t have this situation. I would have probably voted remain and I bet many others would have too, and we would all be here happy as Larry moaning about Mike Ashley instead.

Edited September 5, 2019 by zerosum

[Rayvin 5183]

2 minutes ago, zerosum said:

 

Thats exactly it. They should have took the concerns of a large portion of our country onboard and gave us a bit more, we wouldn’t have this situation. I would have probably voted remain and I bet many others would have too, and we would all be here happy as Larry moaning about Mike Ashley instead.

 

I know what you mean. I also think that given the increasing push to the hard right across Europe in general, the EU needed to take people's concerns with respect of resistance to globalisation a bit more seriously. Either more work needed to be done on making it 'work' for everyone, or some compromises needed to be made concerning immigration which would at least offer a short term statement that the powers that be were indeed listening. I say both these things as an immigration approving globalist myself. Having said this, so much misinformation has been applied by the right wing press about this issue (may be true from the 'left wing press' too I suppose, although whenever I try to imagine that I only manage to come up with The Guardian, which I have seen publish Anti-EU articles in the past, and the Express, which I don't read - and it's unclear how much of an impact either have compared to the Mail and the Sun) that one of the other big issues we were always going to have was that any such moves by the EU simply wouldn't be reported on.

 

Has the Daily Mail ever said anything positive about the EU? I doubt it. On that basis, people who solely read it for their information on current affairs apparently now think the EU is a second Nazi regime that is force-feeding us immigrants and overruling our laws left and right. It's hard to combat that level of misinformation if you're a reasonable institution, as the EU broadly is. So if the EU had indeed given us anything, I think that the best we could have expected from the Daily Mail and other right wing press outlets would have been "Britain, Kings of Europe after Cameron brings EU negotiating team to their knees" or "Britain defeats Germany for a third time without even firing a shot" - the kind of thing that doesn't at all reflect the reality of what is going on, and simply seeks to draw lines between us and them. It simply kicks the can down the road and means that the next time a Tory leader needs a quick poll boost, the EU have to hand over even more special treatment. Eventually you have to stop handing out freebies or everyone else starts to feel that it's unfair - as they did.

 

Compounded by the fact that successive British governments have used the EU as a convenient scapegoat for all kinds of policy failures, it's easy to see why people who tend to the right (and indeed the hard left) were quick to jump on the opportunity to give them a kicking. The EU simply doesn't have as much influence on our lives as people are making out - the UK Government has always had far, far more. And yet people wave away the misery inflicted under austerity without a second thought, the lack of proper policy initiatives surrounding integration of immigrants into British life, poor investment in education and vocational skills training, falling police numbers, and so on - voting back in the very people who were delivering it, so that they can get rid of a political institution that is responsible for about almost nothing that affects people's lives in a meaningful (negative) sense.

[Howmanheyman 32728]

How anyone could even contemplate voting conservative who doesn't have some real vested interest blows my fucking mind, to be quite honest. Not keen on Corbyn? It's like having the choice of either going in the ring v the Boston strangler or taking on a US gun freak, armed with his heavy duty arsenal and deciding to take your chances against the gun nut bare handed instead.

[zerosum 234]

Agree with all that pretty much. And this stand off last few years has enabled the extreme on both sides to gain followings. Partly because 90% of people get their information from the internet or TV news. Guilty here of that too I suppose.

 

Whats increasingly annoying for me, which  became instantly apparent after the referendum is when you say you voted leave you are immediately branded right wing or even racist. Id consider myself centre.. I agree with what some left say, and some right, I’ve been a floating voter in the past and gravitate toward relatable leaders as well as policy.

 

But these days I tend to keep quiet about voting leave, or fear a “wtf” type reaction and having to explain myself over and over. It’s tiresome.

 

Like on this thread haha.. seriously though, the reaction of some of my wife’s friends to my leave vote was incredible. Still is. I have to keep my mouth properly shut when they come round or I will get the doghouse 

 

Drives me mad, I’m just a normal bloke man not a monster! And can see how this is pushing more and more people to sides with extremes, being fuelled by media.

[Rayvin 5183]

13 minutes ago, zerosum said:

Agree with all that pretty much. And this stand off last few years has enabled the extreme on both sides to gain followings. Partly because 90% of people get their information from the internet or TV news. Guilty here of that too I suppose.

 

Whats increasingly annoying for me, which  became instantly apparent after the referendum is when you say you voted leave you are immediately branded right wing or even racist. Id consider myself centre.. I agree with what some left say, and some right, I’ve been a floating voter in the past and gravitate toward relatable leaders as well as policy.

 

But these days I tend to keep quiet about voting leave, or fear a “wtf” type reaction and having to explain myself over and over. It’s tiresome.

 

Like on this thread haha.. seriously though, the reaction of some of my wife’s friends to my leave vote was incredible. Still is. I have to keep my mouth properly shut when they come round or I will get the doghouse 

 

Drives me mad, I’m just a normal bloke man not a monster! And can see how this is pushing more and more people to sides with extremes, being fuelled by media.

 

I do understand that, and honestly it's helped no one that the attitude exists concerning Leave voters. I think the truth is that the left has a lot of cultural power (ceded to it by the right in exchange for financial and political power IMO) and so tends to be able to weaponise things like this. From our side though, leavers should perhaps understand that we have been totally ignored throughout this whole process. 16 million of us voted to Remain, and now we're faced with the hardest possible iteration of Brexit. That isn't democratic, at least not to me - not while perfectly good compromise options exist. If May's deal had gone through, and many Remain MPs voted for it, then leavers would have got something like a 90% pure Brexit. It was worlds away from a compromise that I would have accepted. At no point in this process has anyone given a damn about what people like me think. Even Labour has routinely ignored the Remain wing of the membership (85%) in favour of trying to find a compromise position that by the looks of it was about 85% pure Brexit, a stance that ultimately forced me to resign membership earlier in the year because they expected me to take one for the team with hard Brexit, and then vote them in anyway.

 

I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to better discuss the issues in a less inflammatory way and I really think that rebranding the whole schism as globalism vs anti-globalism gets us away from all the negative labels and into the territory of a useful discussion where everyone can make salient points - especially because the two concepts span the entire political spectrum. There are left wingers as fervently opposed to globalism as right wingers are. And vice versa. No one should feel shouted down or silenced in their political opinions (EDIT - necessary clarification - as long as those views aren't inciting violence), and some of the ways people of left wing persuasions handle themselves in such discussions is borderline tyrannical. I myself have the badge of honour of being called out as a Nazi (on here at least) on several occasions. Elsewhere I'm a commie bastard apparently, but in truth I tend to get more abuse from the left than I do from the right.

 

I consider myself moderate left for what it's worth. Economically left wing, socially centrist (which I broadly define as not giving a fuck as long as things are fair).

Edited September 5, 2019 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30266]

1 hour ago, zerosum said:

 

They didn’t exactly give Cameron that when he went to negotiate a better deal in the first place. If they had been so willing to give up like that to us, maybe the referendum would never have happened? That’s partly the problem, they should listen to individual countries concerns within the EU.

What could they have given Cameron that would have changed your mind?

[ewerk 30266]

10 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Yes but a general election tonight ran the risk of Boris just throwing us out without a deal.. I mean would you trust Boris?

 

10 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I don't think tonight counts at all. It's in his interests to have a GE at the time of maximum advantage, and on Boris' timetable is not it.

 

10 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I think if Boris can't get No Deal over the line before October, and then we have an election, JC will be PM. The Brexit Party will finish off Boris.

 

Stop calling him Boris, he's not your mate.

Did you refer to the last two PMs as Theresa and David?

[Rayvin 5183]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

 

 

Stop calling him Boris, he's not your mate.

Did you refer to the last two PMs as Theresa and David?

 

 You're right, my bad. Makes him seem benign.

[NJS 4371]

The way the two sides have entrenched themselves has led to the leave=right wing racist/remain = traitor rhetoric. 

 

I know I come across as the most pro-Corbyn poster on here which is fair despite my doubts about his leadership at times but I'd say he was the only leader to actually try and bring the two sides together. That may be because he's actually a leaver in a mainly remain party but it's also true. Nearly everybody on here would like to see revocation by whatever means but I think there's too much contempt for leavers at times. Some of them deserve it but not all. 

 

This was in reply to zerosum BTW. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by NJS

[NJS 4371]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

 

Stop calling him Boris, he's not your mate.

Did you refer to the last two PMs as Theresa and David?

I've argued this strongly at work with people who didn't even know about "De Ffeffel". It's like when they humanised the bitch with "Maggie". 

[ewerk 30266]

4 minutes ago, NJS said:

The way the two sides have entrenched themselves has led to the leave=right wing racist/remain = traitor rhetoric. 

 

I know I come across as the most pro-Corbyn poster on here which is fair despite my doubts about his leadership at times but I'd say he was the only leader to actually try and bring the two sides together. That may be because he's actually a leaver in a mainly remain party but it's also true. Nearly everybody on here would like to see revocation by whatever means but I think there's too much contempt for leavers at times. Some of them deserve it but not all. 

Corbyn has been trying to please both sides long after that ship has sailed. Rather than trying to unite the country it comes across as a cynical ploy where he's lying to both sides.

Regarding the contempt for leave voters, I don't blame all of them for voting leaving. Tensions were stoked and lies were told. What I have no time for is anyone who still wants to leave after seeing the fucking mess of the last three years and all the promises they were made go to shit. Those people can get to fuck.

[Rayvin 5183]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Corbyn has been trying to please both sides long after that ship has sailed. Rather than trying to unite the country it comes across as a cynical ploy where he's lying to both sides.

Regarding the contempt for leave voters, I don't blame all of them for voting leaving. Tensions were stoked and lies were told. What I have no time for is anyone who still wants to leave after seeing the fucking mess of the last three years and all the promises they were made go to shit. Those people can get to fuck.

 

There are still lies abounding though. And I think a lot of leave voters probably genuinely want to believe them because the alternative is that "they've been played". Which no one wants to believe in any situation.

 

The other difficulty is that all we can point to as hard fact for the 'consequences' of Brexit at this point in time, is that it has caused political devastation. Economic and Social Devastation have not yet occurred.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Rayvin

[NJS 4371]

8 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Corbyn has been trying to please both sides long after that ship has sailed. Rather than trying to unite the country it comes across as a cynical ploy where he's lying to both sides.

Regarding the contempt for leave voters, I don't blame all of them for voting leaving. Tensions were stoked and lies were told. What I have no time for is anyone who still wants to leave after seeing the fucking mess of the last three years and all the promises they were made go to shit. Those people can get to fuck.

Fair comment - I think he should have come out for a second ref sooner. 

 

Thing is if there is another vote and leave won at least he could continue that unite line - the libs and the rest would be fucked. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by NJS

[ewerk 30266]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

There are still lies abounding though. And I think a lot of leave voters probably genuinely want to believe them because the alternative is that "they've been played". Which no one wants to believe in any situation.

 

The other difficulty is that all we can point to as hard fact for the 'consequences' of Brexit at this point in time, is that it has caused political devastation. Economic and Social Devastation have not yet occurred.

It's simply that they don't want to admit that they've been lied to. We've gone from sunny uplands to needing the Blitz spirit. If they stopped to think for a moment why we need to adopt a wartime mentality then maybe it might occur to them that this isn't such a good idea.

[ewerk 30266]

2 minutes ago, NJS said:

Thing is if there is another vote and leave won at least he could continue that unite line - the libs and the rest would be fucked. 

I think that if he doesn't back remain he's fucked regardless of the outcome.

[Rayvin 5183]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

I think that if he doesn't back remain he's fucked regardless of the outcome.

 

I can only speak for myself on this, but if Corbyn delivers a second referendum, irrespective of whether or not he backs Remain, I'll be satisfied with him and can go back to voting Labour. I don't want Remain at any cost, I just want this ridiculous hijacking of a democratic vote into its most extreme form to be stopped at least until there is an actual, demonstrable mandate for it.

[ewerk 30266]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I can only speak for myself on this, but if Corbyn delivers a second referendum, irrespective of whether or not he backs Remain, I'll be satisfied with him and can go back to voting Labour. I don't want Remain at any cost, I just want this ridiculous hijacking of a democratic vote into its most extreme form to be stopped at least until there is an actual, demonstrable mandate for it.

Perhaps I'm biased but it won't be Corbyn that will deliver a second referendum. It'll have been the Lib Dems' ability to illustrate how an anti-Brexit message can work and the pressure put on him by the rest of the Labour Party. He's been dragged kicking and screaming to this point, I don't give him credit for that.

[zerosum 234]

19 minutes ago, NJS said:

The way the two sides have entrenched themselves has led to the leave=right wing racist/remain = traitor rhetoric. 

 

I know I come across as the most pro-Corbyn poster on here which is fair despite my doubts about his leadership at times but I'd say he was the only leader to actually try and bring the two sides together. That may be because he's actually a leaver in a mainly remain party but it's also true. Nearly everybody on here would like to see revocation by whatever means but I think there's too much contempt for leavers at times. Some of them deserve it but not all. 

 

This was in reply to zerosum BTW. 

 

Can see what you’re saying man. As I said I tend to gravitate towards relatable leaders and policy. I don’t gravitate toward Corbyn, for kind of the reasons ewerk states above BUT that doesn’t mean I am gravitating toward Boris lol. I just won’t vote (again). They are all shite.

[Rayvin 5183]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Perhaps I'm biased but it won't be Corbyn that will deliver a second referendum. It'll have been the Lib Dems' ability to illustrate how an anti-Brexit message can work and the pressure put on him by the rest of the Labour Party. He's been dragged kicking and screaming to this point, I don't give him credit for that.

 

I won't either, but once Brexit is out of the way his manifesto goes back to looking pretty good to me. And if he does the right thing in the end, shows a bit of political courage, and throws his party behind a people's vote, then there's really nothing for me to hold against him.

 

I'm not entirely sure that any time prior to now, a vote on a second referendum in parliament would have gotten through even if he whipped Labour to vote for it.

[ewerk 30266]

4 minutes ago, zerosum said:

 

Can see what you’re saying man. As I said I tend to gravitate towards relatable leaders and policy. I don’t gravitate toward Corbyn, for kind of the reasons ewerk states above BUT that doesn’t mean I am gravitating toward Boris lol. I just won’t vote (again). They are all shite.

You're certainly not alone in that thinking and in fact you're exactly the sort of voter that a leader needs to win over in order to get into power. I've said it before but if Labour kept every one of Corbyn's policies but put in place a more charismatic and politically adept leader then they'd walk the election.

[zerosum 234]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

You're certainly not alone in that thinking and in fact you're exactly the sort of voter that a leader needs to win over in order to get into power. I've said it before but if Labour kept every one of Corbyn's policies but put in place a more charismatic and politically adept leader then they'd walk the election.

 

And get rid of a few of those around him too.

[Renton 21307]

Out of interest, can anyone truthfully say they were aware of what the CU and SM were before this referendum, when they voted, and even now?