Europe --- In or Out

[NJS 4411]

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.

 

No change. We've voted out of Europe for nothing more than 'avoiding legislation'. That's what he's saying. Freedom of movement will remain, abiding by EU single market conditions will remain, the money spent will remain. Immigration, will remain.

 

I actually find this reassuring. We look like utter fuckwits, but at least basically nothing is going to change, apparently. Hopefully the EU sees it this way as well.

It will be interesting to see how the leave voters react when they realise theyre getting nowt.

 

(Apart from a different cunt as PM)

[Renton 22004]

I think the feeling by most is one of bewilderment as the decision doesn't seem to make sense for most people and politicians here. But as the relationship between the UK and the EU was hardly ever a love affair the decision to leave the EU is not seen as the end of the world but rather a split from a often quite difficult and demanding partner.

I don't think too many people are too worried for now as it is foremost seen as a very risky decision by the British people who will rather likely suffer from the economical implications.It will probably harm our and other European economies as well but it has to be seen what impact the decision will have. E.g. Frankfurt might gain a lot if banks decide to leave London.

The biggest risk is probably that the process of the UK leaving the EU will take too long which would create too much insecurity and instability. That's why most politicians want to get the work done rather sooner than later. But again, a long process will probably harm the British economy much more than ours (if at all).

 

On the other hand it has to be seen what impact the decision will have on the growing euroscepticism we do face here as well. A nosedive in economic fortunes in the UK would probably shut up a couple of people.

 

While the decision probably won't affect me too much personally, I have a few English friends living here who are really worried what the future will hold for them. A lot of them been living here for quite a few years and were settled but don't know what will happen with them, e.g. in case they lose their job.

Thanks for this Isegrim, very much appreciated. Please tell your friends and colleagues, we've not all gone mad here.

[Howay 12496]

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI the BDI has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.

 

No change. We've voted out of Europe for nothing more than 'avoiding legislation'. That's what he's saying. Freedom of movement will remain, abiding by EU single market conditions will remain, the money spent will remain. Immigration, will remain.

 

I actually find this reassuring. We look like utter fuckwits, but at least basically nothing is going to change, apparently. Hopefully the EU sees it this way as well.

What a complete and utter fucking shambles this whole thing is. I cannot believe people actually voted leave, there was not a single compelling reason to do so, which has been completely displayed by the fact the gaggle of bellends leading the campaign have no fucking idea what to do in the aftermath.

 

I really hope the Scottish parliament find a way to block it or the MP's simply ignore the referendum and refuse to follow up on it, I think a lot of people will breathe a sigh of relief (including a lot that voted leave).

 

Between this fucking nonsense and the crap going on with Trump it is genuinely frightening this "moron movement" that seems to be sweeping politics, ignoring experts and acting like painfully rich, overly posh jeb-ends are working class heroes is fucking ridiculous and needs to be packed in.

 

iirc the founding fathers of the USA made the electoral college as the didn't trust these fucking animals to actually think this whole voting thing through, it seems like they were completely spot on with that assessment as people still aren't thinking before voting hundreds of years later. Sickened by reading posts from utter morons I went to school with now acting like they're financial masterminds, these same people have never worked and one lass has 3 kids to 3 blokes and spends all her dole money on pints in her local, scary that people like this have caused utter fucking havoc and real possible hardship for people like Rentons mates in research.

[Dr. Richard Kimble 0]

They need to slow walk article 50 and it looks as if the twats can't even do that right. It looks as though they're going to invoke it before the end of the week.

[Gemmill 46065]

It's the PM's decision when to invoke it, I thought. And Cameron isn't going to do it by the end of the week.

[Gemmill 46065]

These labour MPs man. This week should all have been about how totally unprepared the Tory government is to cope with Brexit. Absolutely staggering that the news is now just dominated by Labour civil war.

[Gemmill 46065]

Take a look at @GuardianHeather's Tweet:

[Dr Gloom 22179]

Interesting read from Johnson. Striking that the rhetoric is totally different to that used in the campaign. You have to wonder what the likes of Farage and many others who were inspired by his vitriol will make of it if this is what transpires and little to nothing changes.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Dr. Richard Kimble 0]

It's the PM's decision when to invoke it, I thought. And Cameron isn't going to do it by the end of the week.

 

After the galactic screw ups of the last few months how much confidence can there be in that? They almost seem to be on a suicide mission.

[Happy Face 29]

Great Britains decision to leave the European Union has wiped out many bankers and global speculators. They will turn, as they did in 2008, to governments to rescue them from default. Most governments, including ours, will probably comply.

 

Will the American public passively permit another massive bailout of the banks? Will it accept more punishing programs of austerity to pay for this bailout? Will a viable socialism rise out of the economic chaos to halt further looting of the U.S. Treasury and the continued reconfiguration of the economy into neofeudalism? Or will a right-wing populism, with heavy undertones of fascism, ascend to power because of a failure on the part of the left to defend a population once again betrayed?

 

Whatever happens next will be chaotic. Global financial markets, which lost heavily on derivatives, are already in free fall. The value of the British pound has dropped by over 9 percent and British bank stock prices by over 25 percent. This decline has wiped out the net worth of many Wall Street brokerage houses and banks, leaving them with negative equity. The Brexit vote severely cripples and perhaps kills the eurozone and, happily, stymies trade agreements such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. It throws the viability of NATO and American imperial designs in Eastern Europe and the Middle East into question. The British publics repudiation of neoliberal economics also has the potential to upend the presidential elections. The Democratic Party will orchestrate a rescue of Wall Street if there is a call for a bailout. Donald Trump and the Republicans, by opposing a bailout, can ride popular revulsion to power.

 

A lot of banks in America and Europe that held their money in Great Britain just lost 9 percent at current exchange rates, said economist Michael Hudson when I reached him in New York by phone. They have probably not hedged it. There have probably been large Wall Street institutions that made bets believing that Britain would remain in the European Union. There are firms and banks, I suspect, which have lost hundreds of billions of dollars. There is talk of another Lehman Brothers. We dont yet know who it will be.

 

The Democratic Party, by rescuing Wall Street, will be unmasked as the handmaidens of the financial elite.

 

I expect Obama to do whatever he is told to do by Wall Street, Hudson said. He has turned over management of the economy to his campaign contributors from Goldman Sachs and Chase Manhattan. He does not have views of his own, other than self-promotion. He wants his presidential library. He wants to have a big foundation like the Clintons. Most of the population will oppose a bailout, of course, and he will cry all the way to the bank.

 

Economies built on scaffolds of debt eventually collapse. There comes a moment when the service of the debt, as we see in Greece, becomes unsustainable. More and more draconian austerity measures are imposed on a captive public to pay banks and bondholders until these measures reach an intolerable level. The people revolt. The system crashes. This is what happened in Britain.

 

The war against international finance, and the array of intergovernmental systems and institutions used to enforce the predatory beast of global speculation, has begun. The question is, who will win? Will it be the banks, which intend to continue to pillage economies? Or will it be popular movements that will rise up to cancel debt and reinstate economic and political sovereignty?

 

Hudson sees the crisis in Europe as, in part, spawned by the U.S. intervention in the Middle East and the Ukraine.

 

If there is anyone who is responsible for the Brexit, it is Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, he said. They destroyed Libya. They turned over Libyan weapons to [islamic State], al-Qaida and [Nusra Front]. It was their war in Syria, where many of these weapons ended up, which created the massive exodus of refugees into Europe. This exodus exacerbated nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment. Clinton and Obama are also responsible for a huge exodus of Ukrainians. This is all a response to American war policy in the Middle East and the Ukraine. In central Europe, with the expansion of NATO, Washington is meanwhile demanding that governments spend billions on weapons rather than on recovering the economy.

 

The eurozone prohibits central banks from financing government budget deficits. Countries in the eurozone have, in effect, surrendered economic and political sovereignty. They cannot create money to cope with their budget deficits or pump money into the economy. This, Hudson said, has turned the eurozone into a dead zone since 2008.

The eurozone now shrinks economies through debt deflation, said Hudson, author of Killing the Host: How Financial Parasites and Debt Bondage Destroy the Global Economy. That is one of the factors that led the British and the euroskeptic parties to say, We dont want to be a part of a Europe run by banks that impose debt deflation. We want governments that can create their own money to re-inflate the economy and build economic recovery. As long as a country remains part of the eurozone, bankers will continue to lower wages and wipe out pension funds to pay bondholders. The Brexit vote reverses this rotten program. There are now calls from the Netherlands, France and Austria for a similar referendum.

The debt imposed on countries like Greece can never be paid off, Hudson went on. And the intention is that it can never be paid off. The banks use this inability to pay to insist that governments sell off more and more of the public domain and privatize. Debt is the lever used to force privatization. It takes away the power to carry out public investment and build a public infrastructure.

Some financial firms, banks and perhaps even governments will now default, Hudson predicted. The French and other European banks will try and pick up the banking business that operated out of London. There is going to be a huge loss by British banks. The taxes paid by these firms and banks will disappear from the British economy. Who is the British central bank going to create money for in this crisis? Is it going to put money into the economy, or is it going to pay for a new wave of quantitative easing so the banks can make up the losses on their bad bets?

Britains withdrawal from the eurozone will damage not only the international banking system, but hamper Washingtons aggressive policies toward Russia and the Ukraine. Britain has served within the EU as an American proxy. German Social Democratic Party leaders, who have accused NATO of warmongering, have already called for the lifting of the sanctions against Russia. And there is a growing reluctance to continue supporting endless war in the Middle East.

By breaking with the European bankers, you also ultimately break with the American domination of Europe through NATO, Hudson said.

At some point, governments are going to have to put their own populations and economies above those of predators, he said. The only question is, how long it will take the political system to realize the debts imposed on them by the banks cannot be paid? How long will it take to turn this mathematical certainty into a political response?

If the liberal class, embodied by the Democratic Party and bankrupt socialist parties in countries such as France, continue to serve the bankers, the right wing will have an easy route to power. This will be true in Europe and the United States.

Trump, in Scotland, heralded the vote to leave the EU as a great thing.

People want to take their country back, they want to have independence in a sense, and you see it with Europe, all over Europe, and youre going to have more than just, in my opinion, more than just what happened last night, Trump said. Youre going to have many other cases where people want to take their borders back, they want to take their monetary [policy] back, they want to take a lot of things back, they want to be able to have a country again.

Hudson said such a stance could propel Trump and other right-wing populists to power.

I can see Trump winning the election if he opposes what I expect will be the coming bailout of Wall Street, Hudson said. By the time Obama leaves office, the economy will probably be wrecked. I see us undergoing a slow crash. The economy will go down and down and down. If the Democrats give more money to Wall Street and creditors, if they say the debts have to be repaid, if they again use government to hand money to the 1 percent, they will be discredited. Economic chaos always leads to political chaos. The only way to stop this move to the right is for genuine socialist movements and parties, such as Podemos in Spain, to organize and challenge the international banking system and its enablers in the political establishment. And they need to do it now.

 

 

http://m.truthdig.com/report/page2/2008_all_over_again_20160624

[@yourservice 67]

[ewerk 31218]

These labour MPs man. This week should all have been about how totally unprepared the Tory government is to cope with Brexit. Absolutely staggering that the news is now just dominated by Labour civil war.

Corbyn has failed to capitalise on Tory failings in the past, there's no reason to expect that he would have been doing it now with a committed shadow cabinet. Getting rid of Corbyn now is the best thing for them in the long run.

[Gemmill 46065]

Corbyn has failed to capitalise on Tory failings in the past, there's no reason to expect that he would have been doing it now with a committed shadow cabinet. Getting rid of Corbyn now is the best thing for them in the long run.

They don't need to do anything to capitalise on the current situation, other than sit with their fingers on their lips saying fucking nothing. Instead the entire news media is dominated by Labour in turmoil at a time when the country is in a Tory created crisis.

[Rayvin 5303]

Corbyn has failed to capitalise on Tory failings in the past, there's no reason to expect that he would have been doing it now with a committed shadow cabinet. Getting rid of Corbyn now is the best thing for them in the long run.

He still hasn't gone though. At the minute this just looks like another Labour shambles.

[Christmas Tree 4841]

Interesting read from Johnson. Striking that the rhetoric is totally different to that used in the campaign. You have to wonder what the likes of Farage and many others who were inspired by his vitriol will make of it if this is what transpires and little to nothing changes.

Everything's changing man

 

We'll be outside the EU and not caught up in the mess over there that's just going to get worse.

 

We'll be free to trade properly with whoever we like.

 

We'll be able to implement our own policy decisions such as removing VAT on fuel etc.

 

Add to all that, the political classes might have finally woken up to some of the underlying problems in society that governments have ignored for decades.

 

Hopefully we'll see some progress this week on putting together a team to get the ball rolling.

[Christmas Tree 4841]

Meanwhile, at labour HQ

 

 

[Gemmill 46065]

Take a look at @sgardner's Tweet:

[Happy Face 29]

Corbyn has failed to capitalise on Tory failings in the past, there's no reason to expect that he would have been doing it now with a committed shadow cabinet. Getting rid of Corbyn now is the best thing for them in the long run.

Perhaps, but reading stuff like Phil Wilson in the guardian today shows that the establishment labor party just doesn't get that the status quo will not make them electable.

 

He complains Corbyn 'did not visit the Labour heartlands of the north-east and instead raised esoteric issues such as TTIP which had no resonance on the doorstep."

 

Perhaps because TTIP is one of the major issues of the day which should be a major fear on every doorstep. It only worsens the corporate takeover and is shamefully ignored by most media... And it seems MP's are happy to see it walked through at the cost of the poorer people as long as they project an electable image friendly to business that would punish the market otherwise.

 

Corbyn has faults and has shown a damaging mix of weakness and stubbornness, but I still align closer with him than any of these vermin.

[Gemmill 46065]

That's (the video above) what should be being talked about. Not wall to wall Labour cabinet resignations.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Gemmill

[Gemmill 46065]

Everything's changing man

 

We'll be outside the EU and not caught up in the mess over there that's just going to get worse.

 

We'll be free to trade properly with whoever we like.

 

We'll be able to implement our own policy decisions such as removing VAT on fuel etc.

 

Add to all that, the political classes might have finally woken up to some of the underlying problems in society that governments have ignored for decades.

 

Hopefully we'll see some progress this week on putting together a team to get the ball rolling.

Who do you imagine is going to remove VAT on fuel?

[Renton 22004]

Who do you imagine is going to remove VAT on fuel?

And tampons. Don't forget the tampons.

[Christmas Tree 4841]

Perhaps, but reading stuff like Phil Wilson in the guardian today shows that the establishment labor party just doesn't get that the status quo will not make them electable.

 

He complains Corbyn 'did not visit the Labour heartlands of the north-east and instead raised esoteric issues such as TTIP which had no resonance on the doorstep."

 

Perhaps because TTIP is one of the major issues of the day which should be a major fear on every doorstep. It only worsens the corporate takeover and is shamefully ignored by most media... And it seems MP's are happy to see it walked through at the cost of the poorer people as long as they project an electable image friendly to business that would punish the market otherwise.

 

Corbyn has faults and has shown a damaging mix of weakness and stubbornness, but I still align closer with him than any of these vermin.

Corbyns failure has been that he isn't a leader and if you can't lead you can't carry people with you, regardless of how good your ideas are.

 

Take this campaign, ITV this morning saying that he was offered 6 interviews to come on the show and promote "remain", but he knocked 5 of them back.

 

It's all well going to town halls and preaching to the converted but when you are given the opportunity to get advertise your product to millions, you don't knock it back.

[Christmas Tree 4841]

Who do you imagine is going to remove VAT on fuel?

Anyone, but I'm sure a future Labour leader would love to have that option.

[Dr Gloom 22179]

Everything's changing man

 

We'll be outside the EU and not caught up in the mess over there that's just going to get worse.

 

We'll be free to trade properly with whoever we like.

 

We'll be able to implement our own policy decisions such as removing VAT on fuel etc.

 

Add to all that, the political classes might have finally woken up to some of the underlying problems in society that governments have ignored for decades.

 

Hopefully we'll see some progress this week on putting together a team to get the ball rolling.

The picture Boris paints is massively optimistic. Access to the single market, no impact on British people seeking to work and live abroad in EU countries. EU countries going out of their way to accommodate all of this. I can't see freedom of movement only being a one way street like he seems to suggest.

 

Oh and apparently this move all wasn't about immigration. The leave campaigners just decided to whip the country into a xenophobic frenzy for a laugh.

[Dickie 0]

Perhaps, but reading stuff like Phil Wilson in the guardian today shows that the establishment labor party just doesn't get that the status quo will not make them electable.

 

He complains Corbyn 'did not visit the Labour heartlands of the north-east and instead raised esoteric issues such as TTIP which had no resonance on the doorstep."

 

Perhaps because TTIP is one of the major issues of the day which should be a major fear on every doorstep. It only worsens the corporate takeover and is shamefully ignored by most media... And it seems MP's are happy to see it walked through at the cost of the poorer people as long as they project an electable image friendly to business that would punish the market otherwise.

 

Corbyn has faults and has shown a damaging mix of weakness and stubbornness, but I still align closer with him than any of these vermin.

 

My sentiments exactly - self-serving, careerist snakes