Europe --- In or Out

[Renton 21295]

7 minutes ago, NJS said:

Yeah tory MPs would have voted for a second vote if he'd banged on about it a bit. Right. 

Do you accept that Corbyn doesn't actually want a second vote and in fact wants a unicorn Brexit. Who was it that first demanded A50 was enacted again? 

 

This is what happens when you end up with a rebel with a sixth former's grasp of politics and economics behind the wheel of the main opposition party. I'm just surprised anyone is surprised. 

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, NJS said:

The softer version of brexit which is official labour policy you mean? 

 

Aye, the one that he has done nothing to pursue or generate any support behind because he's fudged the wording on it so much. That one.

[NJS 4371]

6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Tory MPs have voted to hold their own government in contempt, they've voted to remove the negotiating power from the executive, they've voted to reject no deal. Many of them are remain and many would happily throw it back to the public to avoid the problems they're having in their own party but they need political cover and public support gives them that.

Do you really think that Corbyn has played this well?

Jo Johnson voted for none of the "decent" amendments. When it comes to the ones that matter they fall in line. 

[ewerk 30262]

2 minutes ago, NJS said:

The softer version of brexit which is official labour policy you mean? 

Labour's official policy is a fucking fantasy.

[ewerk 30262]

2 minutes ago, NJS said:

Jo Johnson voted for none of the "decent" amendments. When it comes to the ones that matter they fall in line. 

They were non-binding amendments, I wasn't expecting too many Tories to stick their head about a parapet for them.

Edited January 30, 2019 by ewerk

[NJS 4371]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

Do you accept that Corbyn doesn't actually want a second vote and in fact wants a unicorn Brexit. Who was it that first demanded A50 was enacted again? 

 

This is what happens when you end up with a rebel with a sixth former's grasp of politics and economics behind the wheel of the main opposition party. I'm just surprised anyone is surprised. 

He's not alone in not wanting a second vote - as I've said on here the assumed result is not a given once a new campaign gets under way. 

 

Also have a look at how Cooper campaigned on a respect the result/end fom platform at the 2017 GE. 

[ewerk 30262]

4 minutes ago, NJS said:

Jo Johnson voted for none of the "decent" amendments. When it comes to the ones that matter they fall in line. 

Also, you didn't answer my simple question. Do you think that Corbyn has played this well?

[Renton 21295]

5 minutes ago, NJS said:

He's not alone in not wanting a second vote - as I've said on here the assumed result is not a given once a new campaign gets under way. 

 

Also have a look at how Cooper campaigned on a respect the result/end fom platform at the 2017 GE. 

He's not alone. But he clearly is determined to fulfil his lexiter unicorn fantasy, isn't he? He's not motivated to stop this, which might explain his abysmal performance. 

[NJS 4371]

11 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Also, you didn't answer my simple question. Do you think that Corbyn has played this well?

I think he could have done better but I understand some of his views being shaped by leave area votes which I think as "metropolitan" remainers we underestimate. 

 

Going full on remain/second vote/very soft brexit would have come at a cost - look at how the lib dems were wiped out at the GE and their current standing as evidence. 

 

As I also keep saying, I think there seems to be a simple misunderstanding of parliamentary maths. 

[NJS 4371]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

He's not alone. But he clearly is determined to fulfil his lexiter unicorn fantasy, isn't he? He's not motivated to stop this, which might explain his abysmal performance. 

Fair comment - but I still maintain he's in a hard position because of the split in labour voters. 

[Renton 21295]

Just now, NJS said:

Fair comment - but I still maintain he's in a hard position because of the split in labour voters. 

 

But the stats don't really bear this out. Do you think Sunderland will ever vote for other than Labour? I think trying to appease UKip gammons is morally wrong, cowardly, and ultimately counter productive. 

[ewerk 30262]

12 minutes ago, NJS said:

I think he could have done better but I understand some of his views being shaped by leave area votes which I think as "metropolitan" remainers we underestimate. 

 

Going full on remain/second vote/very soft brexit would have come at a cost - look at how the lib dems were wiped out at the GE and their current standing as evidence. 

 

As I also keep saying, I think there seems to be a simple misunderstanding of parliamentary maths. 

And yet he is either behind or has a tiny lead in the polls against the worst government in living memory.

[NJS 4371]

24 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But the stats don't really bear this out. Do you think Sunderland will ever vote for other than Labour? I think trying to appease UKip gammons is morally wrong, cowardly, and ultimately counter productive. 

Sunderland definitely not - places like Mansfield and other marginals could be affected. 

 

The gammon trope is the extreme - there are leave voters who deserve a bit of understanding even if you do think they were wrong.. 

[ewerk 30262]

4 minutes ago, NJS said:

The gammon trope is the extreme - there are leave voters who deserve a bit of understanding even if you do think they were wrong.. 

What? You have to go along with what they want even though they're completely wrong about what's causing their problems?

Are you Seumas Milne?

 

[NJS 4371]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

What? You have to go along with what they want even though they're completely wrong about what's causing their problems?

Are you Seumas Milne?

 

Didn't say you have to agree with their views - just saying it brings to mind the argument we've had on here in the past - if NL were so great, why do all these deindustrialised areas still feel like they've been betrayed over a longer term than this tory government? 

 

Blaming the EU is bollocks but perhaps they should ask why NL didn't exactly transform these areas either. 

[ewerk 30262]

40 minutes ago, NJS said:

Didn't say you have to agree with their views - just saying it brings to mind the argument we've had on here in the past - if NL were so great, why do all these deindustrialised areas still feel like they've been betrayed over a longer term than this tory government? 

 

Blaming the EU is bollocks but perhaps they should ask why NL didn't exactly transform these areas either. 

No, New Labour didn't create a fucking utopian country but they left it a lot better than they found it and much better than the current state it finds itself in.

Of course we need to try to help these parts of the country that are angry and the UK is far too focused on the south of England but indulging them on this issue is only going to make things worse for them.

[Dr Gloom 21812]

i'm starting to think may's strategy might pay off. her masochistic resilience is all about running the clock down, so we get to a point where labour panic and back her deal because it's that or we go over the cliff edge. 

the tories certainly don't want to be remembered as the government that oversees the economic ruin of no deal - it'd make them unelectable for a generation or more. the question is who blinks first: does may soften her deal to get it through parliament, or does Labour facilitate her shitty brexit vision because the alternative is too terrifying to contemplate? 

[Alex 34839]

The thick cunt will be along soon to put you all right 

[ewerk 30262]

22 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i'm starting to think may's strategy might pay off. her masochistic resilience is all about running the clock down, so we get to a point where labour panic and back her deal because it's that or we go over the cliff edge. 

the tories certainly don't want to be remembered as the government that oversees the economic ruin of no deal - it'd make them unelectable for a generation or more. the question is who blinks first: does may soften her deal to get it through parliament, or does Labour facilitate her shitty brexit vision because the alternative is too terrifying to contemplate? 

The Tories can't get the deal through themselves, the ERG won't go for it with any form of backstop.

Labour will happily run the clock down too. Even the decent folk in Labour won't back May's deal. I still think someone will blink before 29th March. At some point the politics has to end and reality kick in.

[Sonatine 11307]

 

[RobinRobin 11122]

13 hours ago, NJS said:

Fair comment - but I still maintain he's in a hard position because of the split in labour voters. 

So he has just done what he has because he wants to win a GE, despite the consequences for the Country?

[Alex 34839]

And to top it all, he’s not even ahead in the polls against that shower of shit 

[Gemmill 44374]

Corbyn.

[ewerk 30262]

Lads, looks like it was all our fault.

[ewerk 30262]

On 1/30/2019 at 14:27, NJS said:

Didn't say you have to agree with their views - just saying it brings to mind the argument we've had on here in the past - if NL were so great, why do all these deindustrialised areas still feel like they've been betrayed over a longer term than this tory government? 

 

Blaming the EU is bollocks but perhaps they should ask why NL didn't exactly transform these areas either. 

Well it looks like Theresa May is trying to use Brexit to help those abandoned leave constituencies by essentially bribing their MPs with funding. This is fucking scandalous.