Europe --- In or Out

[Gemmill 44374]

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Maybe you are just finding it awkward having to debate with someone from centre right?

 

If it really bothers you though, just use ignore. My reading on here has been much improved since I used it on Alex.

 

 

People aren't having a problem "debating" with you because of your position. It's actually because you haven't adopted a position but, more pressingly, because you're a complete cunt.

 

Hope this helps.

[Alex 34839]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Maybe you are just finding it awkward having to debate with someone from centre right?

 

If it really bothers you though, just use ignore. My reading on here has been much improved since I used it on Alex.

 

Rattled 

[ewerk 30262]

7 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

It’s simple, all they are voting on is the withdrawal agreement. 

 

Citizens rights

What we owe

Ireland

 

That guarantees continued status quo until a satisfactory “trade deal” is agreed.

 

The negogiations that come next are where the real action is and where the real focus should be.

Except this deal prevents the UK from doing independent trade deals and gives the EU even more of the power in the next set of negotiations.

[Alex 34839]

Everything that was sorted out ages ago is still all to be sorted out appears to be his stance 

 

[Renton 21295]

7 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

It’s simple, all they are voting on is the withdrawal agreement. 

 

Citizens rights

What we owe

Ireland

 

That guarantees continued status quo until a satisfactory “trade deal” is agreed.

 

The negogiations that come next are where the real action is and where the real focus should be.

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that this is your real take on the WA. I personally think you're initial assessment it's a turd of a deal was correct. An indefinite and most likely permanent loss of sovereignty and massive diabenefit for our economy. Swapping what we have now for what Turkey has, which they hate, is fucking insane. 

 

This article explains well what is wrong with the backstop  Read it. If you seriously think we can negotiate a solution with the EU from an even weaker position than we are now, I'll have some of the bong you're having. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6b6f8a98-e811-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3

 

 

[Renton 21295]

Apparently, we are now in the situation where it is literally impossible for parliament to get the necessary legislature through no matter what the deal is (including no deal and the WA). This suggests we have to have an extension or much of the legal framework of the country will collapse overnight. This is the stuff of nightmares and can't be allowed to happen. 

 

Which means delaying A50 is now imperative no matter what. But since the EU won't do this purely because we need it domestically, the implication might be we have to rescind A50 entirely. 

 

We'll soon see. 

[Alex 34839]

Here’s another one: He appears to be arguing that the DUP, who hate Corbyn, would’ve backed Corbyn and made him Prime Minister (even though they wouldn’t have had enough MPs). For this to happen, Corbyn only needed to back a deal which the DUP vehemently opposes  

[Alex 34839]

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that this is your real take on the WA. I personally think you're initial assessment it's a turd of a deal was correct. An indefinite and most likely permanent loss of sovereignty and massive diabenefit for our economy. Swapping what we have now for what Turkey has, which they hate, is fucking insane. 

 

This article explains well what is wrong with the backstop  Read it. If you seriously think we can negotiate a solution with the EU from an even weaker position than we are now, I'll have some of the bong you're having. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6b6f8a98-e811-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3

 

 

Paywall 

[Renton 21295]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

Paywall 

 

Ahhh, it appeared okay on my PC, must be one of these things where you get a certain number of free articles. 

 

Synopsis: the WA and particularly the backstop are predictably shit for our country. 

[Christmas Tree 4687]

28 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

So, in your own words, Corbyn should have whipped his MPs to vote through "a turd"

 

 

But you’ve ignored the 3 bits that they were actually voting on, the “deal” is yet to be negotiated and is where the real fight should be for interested parties.

 

The only people who really have any credibility voting against the withdrawal agreement are those who are honest enough to admit that they want to reverse Brexit. Everything else is just dishonest.

[Christmas Tree 4687]

32 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Except this deal prevents the UK from doing independent trade deals and gives the EU even more of the power in the next set of negotiations.

 

Not really, it’s pretty clear the backstop position is not good for the EU as has been detailed many times.

[ewerk 30262]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

Not really, it’s pretty clear the backstop position is not good for the EU as has been detailed many times.

Be that as it may, the back stop remains until either a suitable trade deal exists or technological advances are made so as to make the back stop redundant.

This leaves the UK in a situation whereby it has to maintain EU tariffs with no guarantee that third parties will reciprocate those with us. It also means we are very much reliant on trade with the EU and so we will have to adhere to SM regulations as any sort of trade other than frictionless would be a disaster. This also means we will be subject to ECJ oversight and will continue to pay into the EU budget.

It is literally the worst of all worlds and was entirely of Theresa May's own doing.

[ewerk 30262]

I've found it utterly incredible over the past few days how many ERG types have been saying that they'll support May's deal if she get significant amendments to the back stop. It is impossible. It will not happen. The fact that any of them think that it is potentially possible shows just how shit they are at their jobs.

 

[Renton 21295]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Be that as it may, the back stop remains until either a suitable trade deal exists or technological advances are made so as to make the back stop redundant.

This leaves the UK in a situation whereby it has to maintain EU tariffs with no guarantee that third parties will reciprocate those with us. It also means we are very much reliant on trade with the EU and so we will have to adhere to SM regulations as any sort of trade other than frictionless would be a disaster. This also means we will be subject to ECJ oversight and will continue to pay into the EU budget.

It is literally the worst of all worlds and was entirely of Theresa May's own doing.

 

But according to the FT article I linked to, it doesn't eliminate non tariff barriers in Britain, or country of origin rules (i.e. there will still be friction). Meaning our exporters will be at a huge disadvantage. Its horrible. Nobody who wants the UK to do well would sanction this massive downgrade. The only good thing is it buys time because of the transition. But transition to what? Because under the WA we will have even less leverage. 

[Christmas Tree 4687]

36 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that this is your real take on the WA. I personally think you're initial assessment it's a turd of a deal was correct. An indefinite and most likely permanent loss of sovereignty and massive diabenefit for our economy. Swapping what we have now for what Turkey has, which they hate, is fucking insane. 

 

This article explains well what is wrong with the backstop  Read it. If you seriously think we can negotiate a solution with the EU from an even weaker position than we are now, I'll have some of the bong you're having. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6b6f8a98-e811-11e8-8a85-04b8afea6ea3

 

 

 

Unfortunately that’s a paywall but iirc in the backstop we pay nothing for nearly full access to the SM, end FOM, have full control of our waters, continue traffif free access and have full independence on trade deals.....

 

Obviously there are downsides but the 27 don’t want us getting all of that for free.

 

My main point is that the actual withdrawal agreement is really only the gateway to negotiating a deal and anyone who has agreed to implement Brexit should not really have a problem with.

 

I appreciate that as a remainer, anything other than a 2nd vote is unacceptable to you personally.

[ewerk 30262]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

But according to the FT article I linked to, it doesn't eliminate non tariff barriers in Britain, or country of origin rules (i.e. there will still be friction). Meaning our exporters will be at a huge disadvantage. Its horrible. Nobody who wants the UK to do well would sanction this massive downgrade. The only good thing is it buys time because of the transition. But transition to what? Because under the WA we will have even less leverage. 

It would eliminate non-tariff barriers as we would have no choice but to agree to adhere to SM regulations as part of any trade deal.

[Christmas Tree 4687]

37 minutes ago, Renton said:

Apparently, we are now in the situation where it is literally impossible for parliament to get the necessary legislature through no matter what the deal is (including no deal and the WA). This suggests we have to have an extension or much of the legal framework of the country will collapse overnight. This is the stuff of nightmares and can't be allowed to happen. 

 

Which means delaying A50 is now imperative no matter what. But since the EU won't do this purely because we need it domestically, the implication might be we have to rescind A50 entirely. 

 

We'll soon see. 

 

If parliament passes a deal the EU would extend no problem.

[ewerk 30262]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

Unfortunately that’s a paywall but iirc in the backstop we pay nothing for nearly full access to the SM, end FOM, have full control of our waters, continue traffif free access and have full independence on trade deals.....

 

Obviously there are downsides but the 27 don’t want us getting all of that for free.

 

My main point is that the actual withdrawal agreement is really only the gateway to negotiating a deal and anyone who has agreed to implement Brexit should not really have a problem with.

 

I appreciate that as a remainer, anything other than a 2nd vote is unacceptable to you personally.

That's not true. We may have tariff free access to the SM but would also have to eliminate non-tariff barriers, that involves a trade deal and pretty much maintaining as close a relationship to the EU as we have now but without any representation.

[Renton 21295]

Just now, ewerk said:

It would eliminate non-tariff barriers as we would have no choice but to agree to adhere to SM regulations as part of any trade deal.

 

But that would inevitably require EU oversight? My understanding was with the backstop NI will effectively be in the SM but not Britain. Border in the Irish Sea. Regulatory equivalence does not mean the same thing as being in the SM. There has to be border checks, especially on phytosanitary grounds. 

[Renton 21295]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

If parliament passes a deal the EU would extend no problem.

 That's true actually. Well done.

 

 

[ewerk 30262]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But that would inevitably require EU oversight? My understanding was with the backstop NI will effectively be in the SM but not Britain. Border in the Irish Sea. Regulatory equivalence does not mean the same thing as being in the SM. There has to be border checks, especially on phytosanitary grounds. 

Yeah, as I've said above, it pretty much means being in the EU but without any representation. Of course it doesn't automatically come as part of the backstop (for GB) but would be our only negotiating position in trade talks.

The EU have been playing chess while the UK have been playing Candy Crush on a cracked screen.

Edited January 24, 2019 by ewerk

[Renton 21295]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

Yeah, as I've said above, it pretty much means being in the EU but without any representation. Of course it doesn't automatically come as part of the backstop (for GB) but would be our only negotiating position in trade talks.

The EU have been playing chess while the UK have been playing Candy Crush on a cracked screen.

 

Yeah, I agree. And yet somehow Davis has landed a job paying £3000 an hour. And I bet he still uses the time to play candy crush! 

[Dr Gloom 21812]

7 hours ago, ewerk said:

Be that as it may, the back stop remains until either a suitable trade deal exists or technological advances are made so as to make the back stop redundant.

This leaves the UK in a situation whereby it has to maintain EU tariffs with no guarantee that third parties will reciprocate those with us. It also means we are very much reliant on trade with the EU and so we will have to adhere to SM regulations as any sort of trade other than frictionless would be a disaster. This also means we will be subject to ECJ oversight and will continue to pay into the EU budget.

It is literally the worst of all worlds and was entirely of Theresa May's own doing.

So like CT says, a turd of a deal.

Of course it’s all Corbyn’s fault it didn’t pass, not that we’d want it to. Nothing to do with the ERG, the DUP and other Tory rebels. It’s not like their votes counted. Not that JRM wields any power, though he does talk a lot of sense.

Anyway, cracking turd delivered, even if it’s irrelevant because of all of pending future cracking deals. Doesn’t make anything contradictory.

To sum up, it’s perfectly logical for a centre right massive politics geek to vote for Corbyn, despite blaming him for the Brexit fiasco that has unfolded since. Not that it’s a fiasco - that was just project fear. Business as usual.

May delivered a cracking deal. Great news for exporters. Doesn’t matter that we will have to fill farm labour shortages with an influx of Africans because we’ve taken back control of our borders.

And don’t let Osborne’s Brexit budget scare you into thinking the sterling slump is anything to worry about. Labour was responsible for the global financial crisis. But I will definitely still vote Corbyn again, despite the fact we can’t afford to enact any of his policies. There was definitely no money left and that’s why he gets my vote. Free stuff or something. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Dr Gloom

[RobinRobin 11122]

18 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I am actually getting close to putting CT on ignore because he isn't even trying to make coherent points anymore, it's just shameless attempts at winding everyone up (I know that some people feel it was ever thus, but it's more blatant now than at any point I can recall). The main reason I haven't is because everyone else keeps responding to him and it'll disrupt my reading of the thread.

I did ages ago, but people keep quoting him  

[Renton 21295]

Brexiter car crash on this night yesterday:

 

https://twitter.com/ladyhaja/status/1088594193054879744?s=09