Europe --- In or Out

[ewerk 31238]

Corbyn may back another vote. Momentum and the Labour membership are very much for it.

It also gives any Tory PM a way out. If May’s deal can’t be passed in parliament no PM wants no deal and none wants to reverse Brexit without a democratic mandate. It’s the only way out of this mess.

[Dr Gloom 22216]

I think the best we can hope for from this cluster fuck is a Corbyn-led government delivering a soft Brexit where we stay in the SM and CU, which will be an ironic result because the city will love him for it compared to what the Tories are offering, while they’ll hate him for pretty much everything else in his next manifesto.

[Renton 22064]

34 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I think the best we can hope for from this cluster fuck is a Corbyn-led government delivering a soft Brexit where we stay in the SM and CU, which will be an ironic result because the city will love him for it compared to what the Tories are offering, while they’ll hate him for pretty much everything else in his next manifesto.

This is never happening. Corbyn is a rabid Brexiteer and has dictatorial tendencies. Another GE won't solve anything imo, it will make things worse. Corbyn won't win and if he does we're out anyway, on terrible terms.

 

 

[Renton 22064]

4 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Truth be told I’m torn on this so I’ll give you an honest opinion of how I feel about Brexit and step away from the partisan back and forth.

 

1. I still wholeheartedly believe that the Brexit I was offered was a much better future for this country for all the reasons discussed at length.

 

2. Part of me looks at May and thinks her handling of negogiations has been diabolical. The other part realises that the loss of majority fucked her (as we’ve discussed) and has cemented the path she has had to take, inching forward and can kicking to try and keep as many as possible onboard. That’s not incompetence just a political reality of the circumstances she’s ended up in. To a degree it’s worked as proven by the legislation that’s been passed in a tight parliament.

 

3. The deal between the main players was / is done but we have arrived at the end of the can kicking and the chickens are coming home to roost. As the cabinet / dup find out what the deal is, shit is hitting the fan.

 

4. If I’m honest, the deal she has agreed is further can kicking and I think that if voted through we will just postpone this situation for a few years down the line. 

 

5. I don’t think a people’s vote would solve this.

 

6. Given where we are I would favour no deal WTO but only if (as I said in 2016) it was short term disruption and not the sort of collapse (Nissan etc) that you believe in.

 

7. Labour are simply playing politics and should really get off the fence and lay out their strategy.

 

8. That won’t happen yet so what should happen now is this. May puts her deal to the commons. If voted down, she should go and a new PM elected. That person should then either put together their plan for Brexit and deliver it or call a GE. This will ensure genuine details from Labour.

 

9. My teas ready.

 

I'm not trying to be patronising here, but your problem, along with the vast majority of the electorate and politicians, is you just don't get what the EU is. I've always been instinctively very pro-EU and federalist, for many, many reasons. Because of this I was quite up on knowledge way before the idiot Cameron offered a plebiscite referendum for purely partisan reasons. But since then, I have taken it upon myself to learn more and it's been very enlightening.

 

You do this CT by listening to experts, and if so inclined, actually learning about the EU treaties first hand. Experts do not include right or left wing demagogues btw, they are academics, civil servants, economists, lawyers and business leaders. Stop and listen to them ffs.  If you bothered doing this you'd know for instance your point 6 isn't up for debate. WTO is nowhere near a smooth transition, is a supranational body (durr sovereignty stupid), and will lead ultimately to the closure of Nissan and a huge recession in the Sunderland area. The head of Nissan has spelled this out in certain terms, yet still you don't listen. Or maybe, finally, you are. Hence your doubt show on this post. 

[Dr Gloom 22216]

44 minutes ago, Renton said:

This is never happening. Corbyn is a rabid Brexiteer and has dictatorial tendencies. Another GE won't solve anything imo, it will make things worse. Corbyn won't win and if he does we're out anyway, on terrible terms.

 

 

You’re wrong mate. I’ve seen the future and it’s the socialist utopia CT voted for 

[Rayvin 5356]

If Labour do manage to force a second vote and reverse Brexit, the "I told you so" posts from me will make CT's contributions look downright tolerable.

 

Admittedly i think if it does break that way itll be an opportunism thing rather than strategic, but I'm not going to let that stand in the way of my gloating if the chances comes up.

[NJS 4418]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

This is never happening. Corbyn is a rabid Brexiteer and has dictatorial tendencies. Another GE won't solve anything imo, it will make things worse. Corbyn won't win and if he does we're out anyway, on terrible terms.

 

 

I still don't see what he can do without the votes in parliament - so called heroes like Soubry have never voted against the government. 

 

I'd love to know what youd want him to do or I suppose a replacement - how would Cooper stop brexit without the votes? 

[Rayvin 5356]

Something to do with kicking up a bigger fuss about the whole thing apparently. I think it's a political non starter though - letting the Tories hang themselves was the only way to go once a parliamentary vote was approved.

[Sonatine 11616]

 

[ewerk 31238]

7 hours ago, NJS said:

I still don't see what he can do without the votes in parliament - so called heroes like Soubry have never voted against the government. 

 

I'd love to know what youd want him to do or I suppose a replacement - how would Cooper stop brexit without the votes? 

Well you may as well say that about every policy. Would you be happy for him to wave through more austerity seeing as he doesn’t have the votes to oppose it?

[ewerk 31238]

Quote

DER SPIEGEL: If you could stop Brexit, would you?

CORBYN: We can't stop it. The referendum took place. Article 50 was triggered. What we can do is recognize the reasons why people voted Leave

Absolute lies from the leave supporting leader of the opposition.

[Renton 22064]

12 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Absolute lies from the leave supporting leader of the opposition.

 

Aye, this. Lie after lie from Corbyn. He's as guilty of this mess as anyone. In fact, there's an argument he is the most immoral person in politics. At least JRM is relatively honest in his intentions. Someone like Boris Johnson is naked in his ambition. But Corbyn? Completely dishonest and subversive in his aims. Lying about his Brexit beliefs, then damaging Remain from within. Completely ignoring the vast majority of his membership and his MPs to achieve his aims.

 

Could another Labour leader have done better and stopped Brexit? Of course they could have!  This is the most shambolic government in living memory, perhaps ever. And yet Corbyn can't even get a lead in the polls. Like the graphic says, his legacy is that he will have actively helped the far right achieve its aims. Pathetic. 

[Rayvin 5356]

38 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Aye, this. Lie after lie from Corbyn. He's as guilty of this mess as anyone. In fact, there's an argument he is the most immoral person in politics. At least JRM is relatively honest in his intentions. Someone like Boris Johnson is naked in his ambition. But Corbyn? Completely dishonest and subversive in his aims. Lying about his Brexit beliefs, then damaging Remain from within. Completely ignoring the vast majority of his membership and his MPs to achieve his aims.

 

Could another Labour leader have done better and stopped Brexit? Of course they could have!  This is the most shambolic government in living memory, perhaps ever. And yet Corbyn can't even get a lead in the polls. Like the graphic says, his legacy is that he will have actively helped the far right achieve its aims. Pathetic. 

 

I genuinely think there would be political fallout to Labour going in strong on remain. Also, that position has done the Lib Dems no favours at all.

 

I mean the problem here is that we'll never know, but im not convinced at all that the usual suspects from Labour, who have been suspiciously quiet themselves throughout this, Blair aside, would have made a blind bit of difference.

 

Corbyn may well have played this in such a way that he wins power even if he can't stop Brexit. That's winning power with a "radical left wing agenda". No fucker else in Labour was going to achieve that.

 

"As guilty as anyone" give over. You're too quick to overlook the litany of failures from centrist politicians that literally made this happen.

[Renton 22064]

26 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I genuinely think there would be political fallout to Labour going in strong on remain. Also, that position has done the Lib Dems no favours at all.

 

I mean the problem here is that we'll never know, but im not convinced at all that the usual suspects from Labour, who have been suspiciously quiet themselves throughout this, Blair aside, would have made a blind bit of difference.

 

Corbyn may well have played this in such a way that he wins power even if he can't stop Brexit. That's winning power with a "radical left wing agenda". No fucker else in Labour was going to achieve that.

 

"As guilty as anyone" give over. You're too quick to overlook the litany of failures from centrist politicians that literally made this happen.

Do you not yet accept that Corbyn is every bit as a hard Brexiteer as JRM? His voting record in parliament, where he has consistently blocked every single EU treaty, speaks volumes. He's completely dishonest, much more so than even most Tories.

 

He doesn't have to campaign on a remain ticket, polls show the large majority of the population Now support the people's vote. Why won't he support it? Because he WANTS a hard Brexit.

 

Suffice it to say I disagree with you on the failure of centrist politicians, if you mean new Labour by that. They worked for the large majority when in power. Life was genuinely better and fairer. Cameron caused this, for partisan reasons. You also seem to be under the impression that there is majority support for hard left politics Now in this country. History tells me there isn't. The polls back this up. And even if there was, Corbyn doesn't have the intellect to deliver it. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Renton

[Christmas Tree 4866]

13 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I'm not trying to be patronising here, 

 

 you failed 

[Christmas Tree 4866]

12 hours ago, Rayvin said:

If Labour do manage to force a second vote and reverse Brexit, the "I told you so" posts from me will make CT's contributions look downright tolerable.

 

Admittedly i think if it does break that way itll be an opportunism thing rather than strategic, but I'm not going to let that stand in the way of my gloating if the chances comes up.

 

I listened to some bloke on some TV show the other day saying remainers should be very carefull what they wish for by trying to thwart Brexit. Don’t come crying in a few years time if those 17.4 ignored voters end up voting for a Trump style PM.

 

He worded it a lot better but you get the idea.

[NJS 4418]

5 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I listened to some bloke on some TV show the other day saying remainers should be very carefull what they wish for by trying to thwart Brexit. Don’t come crying in a few years time if those 17.4 ignored voters end up voting for a Trump style PM.

 

He worded it a lot better but you get the idea.

I'm all for calling out the stupidity of most leave voters as I've said before but ultra remainers like Renton completely ignore the fact that millions haven't changed their minds and won't. 

 

If they get their ideal where a centrist Labour party emerges with a soft brexit then none of the reasons all of those people in disaffected towns outside london will be addressed and worse than that they will hate "the elite" who made up a lot of their reasoning even more. 

 

I'm not saying that would lead to anything as bad as Trump but at best millions would feel disengaged with democracy altogether. 

[Renton 22064]

44 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 you failed 

Good! 

[Christmas Tree 4866]

10 minutes ago, NJS said:

I'm all for calling out the stupidity of most leave voters as I've said before but ultra remainers like Renton completely ignore the fact that millions haven't changed their minds and won't. 

 

If they get their ideal where a centrist Labour party emerges with a soft brexit then none of the reasons all of those people in disaffected towns outside london will be addressed and worse than that they will hate "the elite" who made up a lot of their reasoning even more. 

 

I'm not saying that would lead to anything as bad as Trump but at best millions would feel disengaged with democracy altogether. 

 

I think the only way the disaffected will ever be “happier” is by centrist politics and a wise popular leader.

 

My ideal government needs to understand the responsibility of money, properly look out for those who really need help, have policies that make sense for the long term and is less bravado on the world stage.

 

The politics of simply trying to out bid each other on spending depresses me. 

 

Policies like Universal credit are brave decisions which genuinely help people get on. Not funding it properly is criminal.

 

Politicians need to be honest about NHS costs and Social care and have an honest public debate about the real options facing us.

 

Neither the left or right can achieve that imo.

[Renton 22064]

27 minutes ago, NJS said:

I'm all for calling out the stupidity of most leave voters as I've said before but ultra remainers like Renton completely ignore the fact that millions haven't changed their minds and won't. 

 

If they get their ideal where a centrist Labour party emerges with a soft brexit then none of the reasons all of those people in disaffected towns outside london will be addressed and worse than that they will hate "the elite" who made up a lot of their reasoning even more. 

 

I'm not saying that would lead to anything as bad as Trump but at best millions would feel disengaged with democracy altogether. 

Ultra Remainer! What's that ffs? Someone who wants to retain the status quo? Or someone who wants to join the Euro and Schenghen? Because I've never heard of anyone in that category.

 

For the record, I've said numerous times I want us to get a Norway plus deal, which solves most of our issues overnight. I think that is also the fairest representation of the referendum result. I DON'T want us to remain in the EU. So unless you haven't been paying attention, wanting a very soft Brexit means you're an ultra Remainer now.

 

How the goalposts have been shifted by the far right that Norway is seen as an extreme viewpoint. A complete rewrite of history if you check earlier this thread. 

[NJS 4418]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

Ultra Remainer! What's that ffs? Someone who wants to retain the status quo? Or someone who wants to join the Euro and Schenghen? Because I've never heard of anyone in that category.

 

For the record, I've said numerous times I want us to get a Norway plus deal, which solves most of our issues overnight. I think that is also the fairest representation of the referendum result. I DON'T want us to remain in the EU. So unless you haven't been paying attention, wanting a very soft Brexit means you're an ultra Remainer now.

 

How the goalposts have been shifted by the far right that Norway is seen as an extreme viewpoint. A complete rewrite of history if you check earlier this thread. 

I meant that in the sense you give the impression of wanting to stick two fingers up to all the leavers to the greatest extent. 

 

I also think Norway or some form of it is the best way forward now. 

[NJS 4418]

18 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I think the only way the disaffected will ever be “happier” is by centrist politics and a wise popular leader.

 

My ideal government needs to understand the responsibility of money, properly look out for those who really need help, have policies that make sense for the long term and is less bravado on the world stage.

 

The politics of simply trying to out bid each other on spending depresses me. 

 

Policies like Universal credit are brave decisions which genuinely help people get on. Not funding it properly is criminal.

 

Politicians need to be honest about NHS costs and Social care and have an honest public debate about the real options facing us.

 

Neither the left or right can achieve that imo.

40 years of at best centrism suggests you're wrong. 

[NJS 4418]

5 hours ago, ewerk said:

Absolute lies from the leave supporting leader of the opposition.

Legally article 50 can be revoked, politically its a non-starter. 

[Renton 22064]

20 minutes ago, NJS said:

I meant that in the sense you give the impression of wanting to stick two fingers up to all the leavers to the greatest extent. 

 

I also think Norway or some form of it is the best way forward now. 

But wait. It was a very narrow result with criminal activity and blatant lying on the leave side. Yet many of them are wanting the most extreme Brexit possible, completely ignoring the 16 million on the Remain side and the people who fell for the bus lie, amongst others. So who is sticking their finger up at who? Norway was the chosen option of many leave politicians, history is being rewritten. Yet people like me should get the blame when it goes tits up? Righto.

[Renton 22064]

24 minutes ago, NJS said:

Legally article 50 can be revoked, politically its a non-starter. 

Legally that's being ruled on later this month by the ECJ is it not? If we can't unilaterally revoke it we're fucked, because many EU countries want us out now. But 8f we can, what would your objection be for a people's vote given the state we are in? Polls show most people want it and it is fully democratic. (EFTA/EEA is no longer an option now due to our bastard government's behaviour).