Europe --- In or Out

[Renton 21294]

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

That doesn’t get rid of your political spectrum from far left to far right and you would just end up with policy deadlock and incremental changes.

 

Sometimes, as with Thatcher and Blair, you need strong governments to govern.

 

 

Strikes me countries with PR are doing better than us. I'm not an expert on foreign systems but ours is horseshit.

[Meenzer 15401]

All theoretical of course, but it'd have been interesting to see the power balance within the Cameron-Clegg coalition (which would surely still have been the outcome in 2010, even with people's votes shifting a bit on account of actually, like, mattering and stuff) if there'd been a 3:2 Con-LD split in the number of MPs rather than the 5.5:1 it was under FPTP. Wonder how much more my team ( ) would have managed to get through. Or whether they'd have just ended up buckling anyway.

[Christmas Tree 4686]

2 hours ago, Meenzer said:

All theoretical of course, but it'd have been interesting to see the power balance within the Cameron-Clegg coalition (which would surely still have been the outcome in 2010, even with people's votes shifting a bit on account of actually, like, mattering and stuff) if there'd been a 3:2 Con-LD split in the number of MPs rather than the 5.5:1 it was under FPTP. Wonder how much more my team ( ) would have managed to get through. Or whether they'd have just ended up buckling anyway.

 

The fucking liberal gammons would be all over the immigrants like a rash

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Christmas Tree

[Meenzer 15401]

Would have got your vote, at least.

 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Neoliberalism is about to pull off its greatest con. On Brexit day the UK falls out of the WTO's Global Procurement Agreement, negotiated on our behalf by the EU. The GPA provides that public services must be open to competition from overseas corporations, except it contains an exemption for the NHS. Trump has just nixed the UK's proposal to re-enter the GPA on its existing terms. 

[ewerk 30259]

Well of course, we're weak right now and Trump won't be the only one looking to take advantage of that.

 

[Renton 21294]

WTO isn't automatic, we will have to renogiate quotas we have shared with the EU. Australia and New Zealand are already in disagreement, and these are probably our closest allies. But every country will want their pound of flesh for economic or political reasons. Don't expect an easy agreement from Argentina for instance. Oh aye, and don't decisions at WTO level need to be unanimous under MFN rules? See how arranging trade with 160 odd countries is like. 

 

 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

WTO isn't automatic, we will have to renogiate quotas we have shared with the EU. Australia and New Zealand are already in disagreement, and these are probably our closest allies. But every country will want their pound of flesh for economic or political reasons. Don't expect an easy agreement from Argentina for instance. Oh aye, and don't decisions at WTO level need to be unanimous under MFN rules? See how arranging trade with 160 odd countries is like. 

 

 

 

*renegotiate.

[Dr Gloom 21812]

10 minutes ago, Renton said:

WTO isn't automatic, we will have to renogiate quotas we have shared with the EU. Australia and New Zealand are already in disagreement, and these are probably our closest allies. But every country will want their pound of flesh for economic or political reasons. Don't expect an easy agreement from Argentina for instance. Oh aye, and don't decisions at WTO level need to be unanimous under MFN rules? See how arranging trade with 160 odd countries is like. 

 

 

Cracking

[Christmas Tree 4686]

22 minutes ago, Renton said:

WTO isn't automatic, we will have to renogiate quotas we have shared with the EU. Australia and New Zealand are already in disagreement, and these are probably our closest allies. But every country will want their pound of flesh for economic or political reasons. Don't expect an easy agreement from Argentina for instance. Oh aye, and don't decisions at WTO level need to be unanimous under MFN rules? See how arranging trade with 160 odd countries is like. 

 

 

 

STOP WORRYING MAN!

 

Seriously, you have the weight of the world on your shoulders.

 

A deal is getting done, we’ll carry on exactly as now for 2 or 3 years and then seemlessly transition to the new arrangements. Virtually nobody will notice the difference.

[Renton 21294]

Anyway, I'm beginning to think the best thing for us now is to crash out. That's probably what is needed to purge ourselves of these Tory cunts once and for all. 

 

It's my opinion we can't survive as a viable prosperous company on our own, not one with high levels of GDP and public services anyway. I'm not able to convince many other people of this admittedly. But, if I'm right, the shock of a no deal will be so severe public opinion will rapidly change and we'll ultimately have to go cap in hand back to the EU, who will also of course be damaged. They'll fast track us back sans rebate. Then, and only then, can we put English exceptionalism to bed and become a mature contributor to the European project.

 

Of course I may be completely wrong in this prediction.

 

 

 

[Renton 21294]

8 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

STOP WORRYING MAN!

 

Seriously, you have the weight of the world on your shoulders.

 

A deal is getting done, we’ll carry on exactly as now for 2 or 3 years and then seemlessly transition to the new arrangements. Virtually nobody will notice the difference.

 

You may be right. But virtually every politician and economist disagrees with you, even the government based on their own projections. And if your last sentence is true, what was the fucking point in all this?

 

From a personal viewpoint though I will be able to cope with Brexit better than 80% of my peers, it's not me I'm worried about. Like I say, bring it on. It might do some long term good if it changes politics in this country.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5176]

22 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Wrong about what? Brexit?

 

Thats democracy. What if all those who want Corbyns Labour to replace the Conservatives are wrong?

 

If Brexit went wrong it leads to lower GDP and some job losses, if Corbyn borrows Billions, Mis manages the finances and turns us into Venezuela we’re all queuing up for rotting meat to feed our kids.

 

Sorry it took me a little while to respond to this.

 

It's already been mentioned that if Labour are 'wrong' they can be voted out in a few years time. The Brexit issue has a far more striking permanence. I would prefer to live under the Tories for probably the next 15 years than leave the EU. Possibly longer.

 

You see Venezuela as the extreme outcome for what happens if Corbyn gets in. For me, and I guess others, hard Brexit is the equal and equivalent outcome for what happens if right wing nut jobs get in, as they appear to have done. The thing is though, your 'fear' of Venezuela is incredibly unlikely to happen in the UK, and as I have said, can be counteracted at key intervals (unless you really, genuinely think that we would have armed police on the streets suppressing a vote). Our equal and opposite scenario with Brexit is right on our doorstep. So maybe when you read our comments, try to consider that we fear the outcome of Brexit in the same way that people with poor critical thinking skills and a general lack of comprehension about the economy fear Corbyn being elected.

 

Brexit is our Venezuela. After reading that Neoliberalism article that I posted about in the politics thread, I am more convinced than ever before that everything the Tories say about the economy is delusional fantasy aimed at covering up decades of failed ideologically driven policy-making spanning two parties (depressingly), and until someone on the right can turn around and tell me why any of it is a better strategy than what Corbyn is proposing, using ACTUAL FUCKING ARGUMENTS with EVIDENCE, STATISTICS, INFORMATION THAT CAN BE RATIONALLY ASSESSED, etc, I'm just going to consider that anyone who brings up Venezuela is effectively admitting that they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about. That should be your standard too, CT. When we give you information about Brexit, it has all the things I've put in caps. You can argue against it, sure, but it has to be using the same stuff. Until that happens, you have nothing to say. And I've seen nothing from the right which is any better researched or articulated than (and I'm not exaggerating here) the sorts of arguments Wolfy would make.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, that is how it looks to people like me. That is why we get so worked up. It looks like the whole country woke up one morning and became completely delusional.

[ewerk 30259]

16 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

STOP WORRYING MAN!

 

Seriously, you have the weight of the world on your shoulders.

 

A deal is getting done, we’ll carry on exactly as now for 2 or 3 years and then seemlessly transition to the new arrangements. Virtually nobody will notice the difference.

Do we just need to have a little more faith and stop talking Britain down?

[Renton 21294]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Sorry it took me a little while to respond to this.

 

It's already been mentioned that if Labour are 'wrong' they can be voted out in a few years time. The Brexit issue has a far more striking permanence. I would prefer to live under the Tories for probably the next 15 years than leave the EU. Possibly longer.

 

You see Venezuela as the extreme outcome for what happens if Corbyn gets in. For me, and I guess others, hard Brexit is the equal and equivalent outcome for what happens if right wing nut jobs get in, as they appear to have done. The thing is though, your 'fear' of Venezuela is incredibly unlikely to happen in the UK, and as I have said, can be counteracted at key intervals (unless you really, genuinely think that we would have armed police on the streets suppressing a vote). Our equal and opposite scenario with Brexit is right on our doorstep. So maybe when you read our comments, try to consider that we fear the outcome of Brexit in the same way that people with poor critical thinking skills and a general lack of comprehension about the economy fear Corbyn being elected.

 

Brexit is our Venezuela. After reading that Neoliberalism article that I posted about in the politics thread, I am more convinced than ever before that everything the Tories say about the economy is delusional fantasy aimed at covering up decades of failed ideologically driven policy-making spanning two parties (depressingly), and until someone on the right can turn around and tell me why any of it is a better strategy than what Corbyn is proposing, using ACTUAL FUCKING ARGUMENTS with EVIDENCE, STATISTICS, INFORMATION THAT CAN BE RATIONALLY ASSESSED, etc, I'm just going to consider that anyone who brings up Venezuela is effectively admitting that they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about. That should be your standard too, CT. When we give you information about Brexit, it has all the things I've put in caps. You can argue against it, sure, but it has to be using the same stuff. Until that happens, you have nothing to say. And I've seen nothing from the right which is any better researched or articulated than (and I'm not exaggerating here) the sorts of arguments Wolfy would make.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, that is how it looks to people like me. That is why we get so worked up. It looks like the whole country woke up one morning and became completely delusional.

Great post. Couldn't agree more with the capitalised bit, it's probably the thing that bothers me most. Evidence based policy has been thrown out the window for the sake of toxic ideology and soundbites. 

[Christmas Tree 4686]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Sorry it took me a little while to respond to this.

 

It's already been mentioned that if Labour are 'wrong' they can be voted out in a few years time. The Brexit issue has a far more striking permanence. I would prefer to live under the Tories for probably the next 15 years than leave the EU. Possibly longer.

 

You see Venezuela as the extreme outcome for what happens if Corbyn gets in. For me, and I guess others, hard Brexit is the equal and equivalent outcome for what happens if right wing nut jobs get in, as they appear to have done. The thing is though, your 'fear' of Venezuela is incredibly unlikely to happen in the UK, and as I have said, can be counteracted at key intervals (unless you really, genuinely think that we would have armed police on the streets suppressing a vote). Our equal and opposite scenario with Brexit is right on our doorstep. So maybe when you read our comments, try to consider that we fear the outcome of Brexit in the same way that people with poor critical thinking skills and a general lack of comprehension about the economy fear Corbyn being elected.

 

Brexit is our Venezuela. After reading that Neoliberalism article that I posted about in the politics thread, I am more convinced than ever before that everything the Tories say about the economy is delusional fantasy aimed at covering up decades of failed ideologically driven policy-making spanning two parties (depressingly), and until someone on the right can turn around and tell me why any of it is a better strategy than what Corbyn is proposing, using ACTUAL FUCKING ARGUMENTS with EVIDENCE, STATISTICS, INFORMATION THAT CAN BE RATIONALLY ASSESSED, etc, I'm just going to consider that anyone who brings up Venezuela is effectively admitting that they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about. That should be your standard too, CT. When we give you information about Brexit, it has all the things I've put in caps. You can argue against it, sure, but it has to be using the same stuff. Until that happens, you have nothing to say. And I've seen nothing from the right which is any better researched or articulated than (and I'm not exaggerating here) the sorts of arguments Wolfy would make.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, that is how it looks to people like me. That is why we get so worked up. It looks like the whole country woke up one morning and became completely delusional.

 

As I mentioned in the politics thread, take some time to look back at our political past, what we were like when the government thought they knew best and how really shit people’s lives were compared to now.

 

This is the world Corbyn and McDonnel want to take us back too. Everything can be sorted by spending someone else’s money.

 

”Sick man of Europe” was our reputation. Thatcher dragged the country from its sickbed and Blair continued in overall the same vein.

 

Read your Guardian and immerse yourself in a hard left eutopia but it’s never worked here or anywhere else in the world.

[Christmas Tree 4686]

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You may be right. But virtually every politician and economist disagrees with you, even the government based on their own projections. And if your last sentence is true, what was the fucking point in all this?

 

From a personal viewpoint though I will be able to cope with Brexit better than 80% of my peers, it's not me I'm worried about. Like I say, bring it on. It might do some long term good if it changes politics in this country.

 

I am right. Chill

[Alex 34838]

1977 was the year with the least wealth inequality in this country's history.

[Christmas Tree 4686]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Do we just need to have a little more faith and stop talking Britain down?

 

Its immaterial what you do as everything has been sorted. Simply loose ends now being tied up, a bit of theatrical drama to make it look hard won and a nice big signing ceremony in December to leave Labour with no choice but to back it.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

As I mentioned in the politics thread, take some time to look back at our political past, what we were like when the government thought they knew best and how really shit people’s lives were compared to now.

 

This is the world Corbyn and McDonnel want to take us back too. Everything can be sorted by spending someone else’s money.

 

”Sick man of Europe” was our reputation. Thatcher dragged the country from its sickbed and Blair continued in overall the same vein.

 

Read your Guardian and immerse yourself in a hard left eutopia but it’s never worked here or anywhere else in the world.

 

Good thing I don't want a hard left utopia then (was that a pun or a typo?).

 

I want a scandinavian model CT. That's all. That's all Labour seem to be proposing as well. The second they go further, they can be kicked out. I want a mixed economy. Not this privitised, dysfunctional hellhole that we seem to be living in. There are many examples of successful, functional mixed economies. The fact that you have to take the most extreme vision says it all. It's like when people on the left go around branding anyone with concerns about immigration a nazi. It's the same non-engagement with the argument.

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

1977 was the year with the least wealth inequality in this country's history.

 

That doesn't sound so bad to me, CT. Appreciate that there are other factors at play but that's currently one data point in support. 

[ewerk 30259]

7 minutes ago, Alex said:

1977 was the year with the least wealth inequality in this country's history.

Because everyone was poor. [/CT]

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

1977 was the year with the least wealth inequality in this country's history.

 

Hence the explosion of Punk. 

 

 

[Alex 34838]

1 minute ago, Anorthernsoul said:

 

Hence the explosion of Punk. 

 

 

No, that was down to Prog Rock

[ewerk 30259]

9 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

As I mentioned in the politics thread, take some time to look back at our political past, what we were like when the government thought they knew best and how really shit people’s lives were compared to now.

 

This is the world Corbyn and McDonnel want to take us back too. Everything can be sorted by spending someone else’s money.

 

”Sick man of Europe” was our reputation. Thatcher dragged the country from its sickbed and Blair continued in overall the same vein.

 

Read your Guardian and immerse yourself in a hard left eutopia but it’s never worked here or anywhere else in the world.

Labour's policies aren't that radical. 

But you already know that, otherwise you wouldn't have voted for them.