Jump to content

Europe --- In or Out


Christmas Tree
 Share

Europe?  

92 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

So are you against a people’s vote?

even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow.   

you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump.

we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. 

but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

So are you against a people’s vote?

 

I'm not sold on the idea actually, but May has got herself into such a mess it may be the only way forward. Look, about half the population voted for Brexit and half didn't in an advisory referendum. I wanted a grown up to examine the options and take the least damaging course. That's to leave the political structures of the EU and remain in the EEA and CU. Most people would accept that. There is no mandate for the extreme Brexit you want. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Maybe we should action the first democratic decision first.

 

To your 2nd point, it’s very rare we get a hung parliament, having a system that produces more of them doesn’t appeal to me.

We've had 8 years of hung parliaments, and they have been 8 very bad years. I want an end to adversarial politics full stop,  it's ripping the country apart. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow.   

you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump.

we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. 

but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. 

So we just go along with the 52% for a quiet life?

And at what point in the last twenty years would be have actually implemented an emergency brake?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

even though i think leaving the EU is batshit crazy, i'm starting to think a people's vote is a bad idea, even though remain might edge it if there was another referendum tomorrow.   

you can only imagine the kind of dangerous, populist demagogue the 52% might turn to if they narrowly lost out in a re-run. it will be confirmation that the political class don't serve them and we could end up being confronted by some farage type on steroids - an english donald trump.

we can still salvage something from this disaster if we "leave" the EU but stay in the CU and SM. 

but this all does rather depend on whether europe grants us an emergency brake on immigration, which is what cameron failed to achieve in the first place before we found ourselves in this sorry mess. 

 

I agree with a lot of that. I would rather we called Brexit off than have another vote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Just for clarity.....

 

Voters backed the manifesto

553 MP’s voted for the refferendum

17.4 million voted to leave

500 MP’s voted to trigger article 50

 

stop whinging about democracy in action.

 

There wasnt a mandate in the first place. Its a row in the tory party.... “the best prime minister in our lifetime” shit himself. Even May has shown more back bone than that cunt. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm not sold on the idea actually, but May has got herself into such a mess it may be the only way forward. Look, about half the population voted for Brexit and half didn't in an advisory referendum. I wanted a grown up to examine the options and take the least damaging course. That's to leave the political structures of the EU and remain in the EEA and CU. Most people would accept that. There is no mandate for the extreme Brexit you want. 

37% of the electorate voted for leave. Not half.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

Good job we sorted them out.

Because of their orthographic skills or their xenophobic views?

 

But i don’t  think that bombing Brexiteers is on a Junckers agenda to fix this nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

We've had 8 years of hung parliaments, and they have been 8 very bad years. I want an end to adversarial politics full stop,  it's ripping the country apart. 

 

We’ve had 8 tough years because of the financial crash.

 

You will never end adversarial politics in a democracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ewerk said:

So we just go along with the 52% for a quiet life?

And at what point in the last twenty years would be have actually implemented an emergency brake?

We wouldn’t but it’s the kind of fudge that would keep the gammons at bay while hopefully preventing the rise of some terrifying Viktor Oban type. It’d be remaining in all but name. 

Edited by Dr Gloom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

We’ve had 8 tough years because of the financial crash.

 

You will never end adversarial politics in a democracy.

 

It doesn't have to be winner takes all. Our political system as well as the US is a complete shambles now, not fit for purpose. 

 

I'll give you an example. When UKip got 10% of the votes they had every right to be represented. It would have beenuch less damaging and more importantly fair. What we got with Cameron's appeasement was much worse. FPTP is now leading to extreme governments rather than moderate ones. That's not good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

We wouldn’t but it’s the kind of fudge that would keep the gammons at bay while hopefully preventing the rise of some terrifying Viktor Oban type.

 

 

The gammons can fuck off. You've seen how they've been emboldened since the vote. Time to put them back in their box.

Edited by ewerk
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

It doesn't have to be winner takes all. Our political system as well as the US is a complete shambles now, not fit for purpose. 

 

 

But we haven’t had “winner takes all” for the last 8 years that you are complaining about.

 

Had either party had a big majority in 2010 or 2015 then we wouldn’t be in this position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

The gammons can fuck off. You've seen how they've been emboldened since the vote. Time to put them back in their box.

Imagine what another campaign would be like man: the fury and vitriol, more divisive lies, increasing racial and social tensions.

It’s potentially dangerous either way: either the brexiters secure another narrow win and are validated, winning a mandate for economic suicide, or remain nick it, we imagine the last couple of years didn’t happen, pretend we haven’t wasted billions in the process and sit back while some populist strong man type seizes the day and drives us towards dystopia.

Edited by Dr Gloom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

But we haven’t had “winner takes all” for the last 8 years that you are complaining about.

 

Had either party had a big majority in 2010 or 2015 then we wouldn’t be in this position.

Erm, Cameron 2015? Remember, best PM of your lifetime?

 

Our system isn't built for power sharing. We need to change this because people need to be represented in the 21st century.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Renton said:

Erm, Cameron 2015? Remember, best PM of your lifetime?

 

Our system isn't built for power sharing. We need to change this because people need to be represented in the 21st century.

 

I’m confused, I thought you were advocating power sharing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

@ewerk

 

What is reality on the ground of a United Ireland? Is it part of everyday discourse, is the clamour growing, is a vote likely in the next few years, will a United Ireland stay in the EU or would that need a vote?

Why would it need a vote when most people in NI voted remain and the huge majority in Ireland are pro EU? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

@ewerk

 

What is reality on the ground of a United Ireland? Is it part of everyday discourse, is the clamour growing, is a vote likely in the next few years, will a United Ireland stay in the EU or would that need a vote?

It isn’t an issue yet. That will change if a hard border goes up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

I am. I'm advocating ripping up FptP and bringing in PR.

 

That doesn’t get rid of your political spectrum from far left to far right and you would just end up with policy deadlock and incremental changes.

 

Sometimes, as with Thatcher and Blair, you need strong governments to govern.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.