Europe --- In or Out

[Alex 35077]

Strong and stable

[Renton 21606]

So, if May stays on it's confirmed no deal then. She'd rather throw herself and 60 million people off a cliff than admit she's wrong?

 

Fuck me. 

[Gemmill 44851]

That was fucking embarrassing.  I think she's been watching Independence Day and decided that this was her chance to stand up to the aliens. She's so so weird. 

[ewerk 30598]

She seems a bit miffed that she hasn’t received a reason from the EU as to why they have rejected her plan to stay in the single market for goods. Any politics A-level student should be able to explain that to her.

[Gemmill 44851]

It started off with her sound like a kid saying that "IT'S JUST NOT FAIR".  I fucking can't stand the grey bitch. Properly fizzing cos she's been rightly made to look like the kid in the room. 

[ewerk 30598]

The only man I know who thinks about cake more than CT.

 

[Alex 35077]

We deserve our fate if people can't see past rhetoric like that tbh

[Renton 21606]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

We deserve our fate if people can't see past rhetoric like that tbh

 

People from manufacturing areas like Sunderland falling for shit like that, spoken from a shithead like that.

 

 

You know it seems to be becoming obvious the only way we can really recover from where we are now is to have a proper no deal Brexit. Planes grounded, medicines shortages, food shortages, the lot. That's what it's going to take now for people to wake up and see they've been had. The collateral damage will be horrendous, but I'd expect we'd be begging for a deal after a couple of weeks civil unrest. The economy would take years to recover, another Tory lost generation. But maybe, just maybe, we could get rid of those cunts forever. 

[Sonatine 11374]

 

[Isegrim 9772]

“Planning “  

[ewerk 30598]

Quote

“The debate around the next manifesto will go on, but I really worry about another referendum,” he said.

“I’m desperately trying to avoid any rise of xenophobia that happened last time around; I’m desperately trying to avoid giving any opportunity to Ukip or the far right. I think there’s the real risk of that. We’re not ruling out a people’s vote, but there’s a real risk, and I think people need to take that into account when we’re arguing for one.”

John McDonnell there pretty much saying that in order to keep the racists quiet we’ll not bother challenging them. All part of the secret Labour master plan I’m sure.

[Renton 21606]

So what do you reckon now ewerk? It's looking odds on for no deal and hard border in Ireland for me. May can't back down now from her position. The EU will definitely not break the four freedoms. And any successor to May is likely to be a eurosceptic. As is the leader of the Labour party (who, incidentally, also want the same ludicrous cake and eat deal as May does).

 

People though there was no chance of WW1 before it happened because there would be no winners. Yet it happened. The one certainty is history repeats itself and we never learn from it. 

[Renton 21606]

Incidentally, have a look at what the probable next PM says here (Javid, if the blue rinse brigade can stomach a pakistani). He wants to use Brexit as an excuse to scrap workers rights, environmental protections, and pensions. And still people cant see through these cunts. 

[ewerk 30598]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

So what do you reckon now ewerk? It's looking odds on for no deal and hard border in Ireland for me. May can't back down now from her position. The EU will definitely not break the four freedoms. And any successor to May is likely to be a eurosceptic. As is the leader of the Labour party (who, incidentally, also want the same ludicrous cake and eat deal as May does).

Yeah, I agree that the last few days have meant that no deal is much more likely.

The EU are getting frustrated now, they've spent the last two years being entirely consistent with their message about what was on offer while the UK didn't (and still don't) have a unified plausible solution. They've tried to help Theresa May by not dismissing Chequers out of hand while telling No.10 in private that it wasn't acceptable. May has then rocked up to Salzburg and completely ignored what she has been told and has attempted to force her deal on them and stating that we won't offer them any extra time in negotiations despite the fact that we're very much the junior party in negotiations. To make it worse, May has then since doubled down on Chequers and has given away any wiggle room she once had for a compromise deal. I was of the belief that May wasn't a total idiot. That while she is a deeply unimpressive individual she would try to negotiate a Brexit that was the least harmful to the economy. Her actions over the last few days have shown her to be entirely devoid of good political judgement at the point where it is most needed.

Labour continue to be absolutely disgraceful in their lack of involvement in finding a solution. I've accused Corbyn many times of lacking pragmatism but this time I think he has taken the pragmatic approach for the wrong reasons. Stopping Brexit is not Labour's aim. They're willing to let the country walk off the Brexit cliff and are hoping to capitalise on the ensuing mess in the next GE. The economy and people's lives will simply be collateral damage for them. The obvious problem being that when they do take power the economy will be tanking, borrowing will be up and the pound will have gone to shit, meaning that there will be no money available to invest in their programme of nationalistion.

So with both the government and the shadow cabinet failing to come up with any workable solution to the problem then we have to rely on the backbenches. I believe that there are enough MPs out there who have a sense of civic responsibility to prevent a no deal scenario. The question is how do they do it? A motion of no confidence won't have the votes to carry. I'm not sure how the 'meaningful vote' on the final deal can bind the government. Their job will be to find whatever statutory instrument they can to force a referendum on May's deal (if there is any), no deal and remaining in the EU. I can't see any other way out of this mess.

[Meenzer 15519]

Couldn't have put it any better.

 

Speaking of which:

 

 

[Rayvin 5217]

I wonder if May is playing a strategy to best allow the Tories to recover. She knows the following:

 

1 - The Tories can't push Remain or soft Brexit and remain credible/electable.

 

2 - Chequers was really the only chance she had of saving the economy given that she wasn't prepared to deviate from 1.

 

3 - If she puts the message over as Chequers or nothing, she's basically forcing the EU to be the ones to say 'nothing', and therefore is laying the groundwork for them to be painted as the villains in the oncoming economic harm that will befall the nation. So then, it will be the EU's fault that Britain went to shit, and not her or the Tories. And she'll be counting on the fact that the British people stupid enough to vote Brexit in the first place will see the notion of blaming her to be equivalent to blaming themselves, something that their tiny minds and pride apparently cannot countenance.

 

So I think she's heading for No Deal now - I don't think for a second she expects the EU to move on Chequers, I think she's putting the Tories above the nation.

 

As for Labour, I agree with ewerk to a point, although I think they see it as more of an opportunity to rid the UK of the influence of whatever aspects of the EU they don't agree with rather than simply pragmatism to bring about a winnable election for Labour. I can see the logic there but it would be a slightly bizarre turn for a party that really doesn't seem to have had that level of strategic planning, and which on the face of it should genuinely care about people's livelihoods, rather than just paying them lipservice like the Tories.

 

I thought McDonnell's comments about rejecting a second referendum on the basis that allowing one will stoke racist and far right inclinations was beyond pathetic. He's set that message up for the pro-Remain SJW lobby that genuinely seems fearful that we're on the cusp of a return to full blown Nazism in order to get them to pipe down about the EU.

[Renton 21606]

I agree with ewerk's analysis, it's simply incredible that we have come to this but here we are. You're probably going to disagree Rayvin but for me Labour under Corbyn are an extremist party. Extremist parties from both sides thrive on chaos and destruction. Corbyn is happy for the country to be wrecked, and for normal people to suffer immensely, to get his clean slate to build his Utopian dream. The tories now are also an extremist party of course, and despite the shit they have subjected the country too are odds on to fulfil their wet dream of Singapore on Thames. Look at what happens when there is no centre ground in politics and apologise, Rayvin. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5217]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

• I agree with ewerk's analysis, it's simply incredible that we have come to this but here we are. You're probably going to disagree Rayvin but for me Labour under Corbyn are an extremist party. Extremist parties from both sides thrive on chaos and destruction. Corbyn is happy for the country to be wrecked, and for normal people to suffer immensely, to get his clean slate to build his Utopian dream. The tories now are also an extremist party of course, and despite the shit they have subjected the country too are odds on to fulfil their wet dream of Singapore on Thames. Look at what happens when there is no centre ground in politics and apologise, Rayvin. 

 

Have a feeling there may be more to this post that didn't survive somehow but to take it as it is now - we do have a centre ground. It's the Lib Dems. Nuff fucking said.

 

Do agree about them being... well not extremist but certainly not centre. How does the centre, which brought us to this point in the first place remember, get out of jail free in your analysis btw?

[Renton 21606]

26 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Have a feeling there may be more to this post that didn't survive somehow but to take it as it is now - we do have a centre ground. It's the Lib Dems. Nuff fucking said.

 

Do agree about them being... well not extremist but certainly not centre. How does the centre, which brought us to this point in the first place remember, get out of jail free in your analysis btw?

 

No post missing. The centre didn't get us here. Most European countries have centrist governments, are they in our situation? No, they're not. This whole thing arose from the extreme right. The rise of UKip and the bastards in the tory party, and Cameron's utterly stupid gambit to counteract them (not that I consider Cameron a true centrist). And Corbyn capitalising on the resultant chaos. 

 

We've got to find a way of getting back to centrist consensus politics, or we are truly fucked. With the situation we have now, and FTP, it doesn't look good. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5217]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No post missing. The centre didn't get us here. Most European countries have centrist governments, are they in our situation? No, they're not. This whole thing arose from the extreme right. The rise of UKip and the bastards in the tory party, and Cameron's utterly stupid gambit to counteract them. And Corbyn capitalising on the resultant chaos. 

 

We've got to find a way of getting back to centrist consensus politics, or we are truly fucked. With the situation we have now, and FTP, it doesn't look good. 

 

Cameron was the centre ground and Labour were just one or two policies off his position. We couldn't have been any more fucking central than we were when the whole thing fell apart.

 

The extreme right standing policy for taking control is to wait for an economic shitstorm and then use it to capitalise on widespread discontent. That discontent was fostered over 8 years of centre-right Tory rule, and pointless undifferentiated opposition to it. Now yes, I know the opposition we have now is doing exactly the same thing with Brexit that Miliband did with austerity, but that says more about how fucking pointless democracy is in general than it does about anything else.

 

Agree on the last bit - we do need to do this. But I don't think we -can- do this without a left wing government being installed first, otherwise the 'centreground' that we establish is going to look exactly like where the Tories are standing right now.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Rayvin

[Renton 21606]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Cameron was the centre ground and Labour were just one or two policies off his position. We couldn't have been any more fucking central than we were when the whole thing fell apart.

 

The extreme right standing policy for taking control is to wait for an economic shitstorm and then use it to capitalise on widespread discontent. That discontent was fostered over 8 years of centre-right Tory rule, and pointless undifferentiated opposition to it. Now yes, I know the opposition we have now is doing exactly the same thing with Brexit that Miliband did with austerity, but that says more about how fucking pointless democracy is in general than it does about anything else.

 

Agree on the last bit - we do need to do this. But I don't think we -can- do this without a left wing government being installed first, otherwise the 'centreground' that we establish is going to look exactly like where the Tories are standing right now.

 

Well, I'm not going to disagree with that. Our "centrist" policies have always been to far to the right anyway. The electoral system is in desperate need of reform, but there is no plausible mechanism to let this happen. What a mess. 

[Rayvin 5217]

If I could be convinced that a millionaire backed centrist party was capable of delivering the best outcomes for the majority of people in this country, I would vote for it despite my misgivings over its motives.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Bit of history at where this process started, particularly the way the EU and Blair conspired to dodge a refferendum in the early 2000’s and how the Lib Dem’s called for an in out refferendum in 2008.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884

[Renton 21606]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

Bit of history at where this process started, particularly the way the EU and Blair conspired to dodge a refferendum in the early 2000’s and how the Lib Dem’s called for an in out refferendum in 2008.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884

 

Ive read the article. Tell me where it says the underlined. You're talking shit as usual, arent you? Still think we will get a cracking deal tubs? Care to comment on ewerk's post? 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Renton

[Gemmill 44851]

 

Bit more in the thread.