Europe --- In or Out

[Christmas Tree 4814]

 

I think I'm the only one attempting to have a reasoned debate.

[trophyshy 7084]

Johnson, Galloway and Farage is all you need to know to decide.

[Christmas Tree 4814]

'We are Europe's biggest customer'. What does that mean?

Well this was one article I was reading this morning. (rather than type bits out again).

 

http://moneyweek.com/will-brexit-hurt-trade/

 

Obviously we are in unchartered waters, but most of what I've read to date seems to see the economy and our trade with Europe pretty much continuing as normal overall.

 

As I've said, I'm not swayed one way or the other, just trying to fight my way through the scare stories to the facts of in / out.

[Christmas Tree 4814]

He's fat and buys a lot from Iceland?

I'm thinner than you and I can highly recommend their frozen grapes

[Renton 21967]

 

I think I'm the only one attempting to have a reasoned debate.

Well apologies for my Shiraz inspired insults last night, but you seem to be unaware when you do the same thing.

 

But anyway, what debate, reasoned or otherwise, have you actually offered? You provided a link to an article in a right wing publication which in itself didn't say much. So, again, in your own words, why do you think we'll benefit from Brexit?

 

I've already stated my reasons for staying. Tbh I think the way the UK is handling this is disgusting. I despise the notion of UK exceptionalism. I think, should we vote for Brexit, our European neighbours will have every right to make life as difficult as possible for us, and they will. It will hurt Europe but hurt us much, much more. I literally can't see any positives at all. So go on, tell me what they are.

[Happy Face 29]

I'm in the same boat as you CT. No idea which way to go, or even the best arguments either way.

 

As a lefty I should be able to follow my leaders, but half the left say that we should leave for reasons like this..

 

Look at how the EU has operated. It has driven elected governments – however unsavoury, like Silvio Berlusconi’s – from office. Ireland and Portugal were also blackmailed. The 2011 treaty effectively banned Keynesian economics in the eurozone.

 

But even outside the eurozone, our democracy is threatened. The Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership (TTIP), typically negotiated by the EU in secret with corporate interests, threatens a race to the-bottom in environmental and other standards. Even more ominously, it would give large corporations the ability to sue elected governments to try to stop them introducing policies that supposedly hit their profit margins, whatever their democratic mandate. It would clear the way to not only expand the privatisation of our NHS, but make it irreversible too. Royal Mail may have been privatised by the Tories, but it was the EU that began the process by enforcing the liberalisation of the natural monopoly of postal services. Want to nationalise the railways? That means you have to not only overcome European commission rail directive 91/440/EEC, but potentially the proposed Fourth Railway Package too.

 

 

and the other half say we have to stay in to limit the worst excesses of the Tories who would be unshackled.

 

Not sure how much I buy the latter scaremongering.

 

Certainly unimpressed by the lack of thinking behind the point that if Bojo and Gove want out we should stay in. Funny in itself, but not really a valid point if Cameron and Osbourne want in, the biggest cunts with the most power. Especially when political alligiances are being formed over this issue for elections to come.

 

Corbyn normally presents his views with facts and ideas well expressed, but in saying he'll campaign to stay in he seems to be using empty rhetoric like "stronger togetrher". Stinks of keeping the right wing of his party onside and picking his battles.

 

So aye, swaying towards out but happy to be corrected on the social benefits of remaining in. Links or thoughts appreciated.

[Christmas Tree 4814]

Well apologies for my Shiraz inspired insults last night, but you seem to be unaware when you do the same thing.

 

But anyway, what debate, reasoned or otherwise, have you actually offered? You provided a link to an article in a right wing publication which in itself didn't say much. So, again, in your own words, why do you think we'll benefit from Brexit?

 

I've already stated my reasons for staying. Tbh I think the way the UK is handling this is disgusting. I despise the notion of UK exceptionalism. I think, should we vote for Brexit, our European neighbours will have every right to make life as difficult as possible for us, and they will. It will hurt Europe but hurt us much, much more. I literally can't see any positives at all. So go on, tell me what they are.

I think you should pause and read the thread again. I said when I started it in 2013 and again this week, that I think it will be very hard for people to come to a "considered" decision.

 

I have said numerous times I am undecided and am looking forward to understanding the pros and cons of in or out. Given this is the case, why on earth would I use my "own words" to put a case for something I might not believe in?

 

I would imagine over the next few months a few of us will chuck up interesting articles for both sides.

 

So far, and it's only been a few days, I haven't seen any strong factual arguments for staying. IE What the actual downside of leaving WILL be.

[NJS 4410]

Can't imagine an exited tory government not signing up for TTIP for what it's worth.

 

That would probably suggest an inside pissing out pov but that would need further involvement and reform which is what I'd like to see anyway.

[Renton 21967]

I think you should pause and read the thread again. I said when I started it in 2013 and again this week, that I think it will be very hard for people to come to a "considered" decision.

 

I have said numerous times I am undecided and am looking forward to understanding the pros and cons of in or out. Given this is the case, why on earth would I use my "own words" to put a case for something I might not believe in?

 

I would imagine over the next few months a few of us will chuck up interesting articles for both sides.

 

So far, and it's only been a few days, I haven't seen any strong factual arguments for staying. IE What the actual downside of leaving WILL be.

That last article you posted explained quite clearly what the economic risks of Brexit might be. It didn't really suggest what the benefits might be. Did you actually bother reading it?

[Renton 21967]

I'm in the same boat as you CT. No idea which way to go, or even the best arguments either way.

 

As a lefty I should be able to follow my leaders, but half the left say that we should leave for reasons like this..

 

 

and the other half say we have to stay in to limit the worst excesses of the Tories who would be unshackled.

 

Not sure how much I buy the latter scaremongering.

 

Certainly unimpressed by the lack of thinking behind the point that if Bojo and Gove want out we should stay in. Funny in itself, but not really a valid point if Cameron and Osbourne want in, the biggest cunts with the most power. Especially when political alligiances are being formed over this issue for elections to come.

 

Corbyn normally presents his views with facts and ideas well expressed, but in saying he'll campaign to stay in he seems to be using empty rhetoric like "stronger togetrher". Stinks of keeping the right wing of his party onside and picking his battles.

 

So aye, swaying towards out but happy to be corrected on the social benefits of remaining in. Links or thoughts appreciated.

Are you solely focussed on the benefits for the UK (or more accurately, the UK minus Scotland), or do you not think we need to look at the bigger picture and consider what's best for the continent? Can you give an example where am country has been successful with isolationist policies?

 

I'd say that in general Europe is more socialist than England, wouldn't you? So for me it stands to reason that Brexit would result in a US style lurch to the right.

[Happy Face 29]

Can't imagine an exited tory government not signing up for TTIP for what it's worth.

 

That would probably suggest an inside pissing out pov but that would need further involvement and reform which is what I'd like to see anyway.

 

 

A lot of my assumptions about a better Britain are foolhardilly predicated on Corbyn getting in like.

 

 

Think that's the difficulty with the public being asked to answer the question though. The vast majority wiill decide idealogically on how they would like things to be in a perfect world. And that sometimes conflicts with how things are in reality and what is best given the limitations of the wider situation. Perhaps Corbyn has taken the lesser of 2 evils view himself.

 

Should never have got to a referendum.

[Happy Face 29]

Are you solely focussed on the benefits for the UK (or more accurately, the UK minus Scotland), or do you not think we need to look at the bigger picture and consider what's best for the continent? Can you give an example where am country has been successful with isolationist policies?

 

America's isolationism went well until they ended it to take Europe under it's wing.

[Renton 21967]

 

 

A lot of my assumptions about a better Britain are foolhardilly predicated on Corbyn getting in like.

 

 

Think that's the difficulty with the public being asked to answer the question though. The vast majority wiill decide idealogically on how they would like things to be in a perfect world. And that sometimes conflicts with how things are in reality and what is best given the limitations of the wider situation. Perhaps Corbyn has taken the lesser of 2 evils view himself.

 

Should never have got to a referendum.

Agree with the last point. Amazed you put such stock in Corbyn though. Last month he seriously put forward of building Vanguard submarines and not arming them. This is quite typical of his muddled thinking.

[Renton 21967]

 

America's isolationism went well until they ended it to take Europe under it's wing.

I didn't think I'd need to add the caveat that you can't really use the US as an example. But do you care to explain how the UK, minus Scotland and without the protective laws for its citizens offered by the EU will become a fairer more compassionate society?

[Christmas Tree 4814]

Are you solely focussed on the benefits for the UK (or more accurately, the UK minus Scotland), or do you not think we need to look at the bigger picture and consider what's best for the continent? Can you give an example where am country has been successful with isolationist policies?

 

I'd say that in general Europe is more socialist than England, wouldn't you? So for me it stands to reason that Brexit would result in a US style lurch to the right.

I'm not sure why you equate Brexit to an isolationist stand point. Surely one of the advantages of Brexit is to be able to deal more freely with the rest of the world.

 

Add to that our history of involvement in world matters or overseas aid. I don't see why we would row back from those positions.

[Happy Face 29]

Agree with the last point. Amazed you put such stock in Corbyn though. Last month he seriously put forward of building Vanguard submarines and not arming them. This is quite typical of his muddled thinking.

 

Not that I have faith in him getting in (hence the laugh) but definitely respect his principles and would expect him to lead on this issue with the same principles.

 

The splits in both parties and publicly, as well as the coalitions being formed by far left and right players exemplify the complexity of it and why it shouldn't be in the hands of me or CT.

[Alex 35565]

Feel similar to CT and HF in the respect of not being sure who to believe in order to make a properly informed opinion. Lean towards staying in but would have to admit that's more of a gut instinct thing.

[Meenzer 15716]

and the other half say we have to stay in to limit the worst excesses of the Tories who would be unshackled.

 

Not sure how much I buy the latter scaremongering.

 

Let's ask the Lib Dems about how that tends to go.

 

 

 

 

 

.....damn, can't find any

[Alex 35565]

 

Not that I have faith in him getting in (hence the laugh) but definitely respect his principles and would expect him to lead on this issue with the same principles.

 

The splits in both parties and publicly, as well as the coalitions being formed by far left and right players exemplify the complexity of it and why it shouldn't be in the hands of me or CT.

I think the 'master plan' behind it is to make the government seem more democratic by giving a vote when I tend to think it's more them hoping/thinking the electorate will opt to stay in and making UKIP less relevant and less of a power.

[ChezGiven 0]

I predict an exit.

 

The people who want to leave are passionate about it because they are angry.

 

The people who want to stay are kind of interested in the idea of supra-national collectivism and some notion that the ideals of Europe align with left-leaning tendencies.

 

Only one winner from these two positions.

[Happy Face 29]

I didn't think I'd need to add the caveat that you can't really use the US as an example. But do you care to explain how the UK, minus Scotland and without the protective laws for its citizens offered by the EU will become a fairer more compassionate society?

 

Seems to be a contradiction in the "in" campain here.

 

Someone posted the link to this article arguing against Gove's exit rationale..

 

 

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided for the most part by our politicians — only 13% of laws come from EU level. And even those that do are agreed jointly between member states. There are very few — in fact I can’t think of any — UK laws that are the result of the UK being outvoted at EU level.

 

https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.ch362hjf6

 

If European law is already so aligned to our values (as the in campain argue) then I don't see a significant worsening of the rights of society.

 

Wouldn't the reduction in free movement of workers from the continent lead to stronger unionised workforces pushing harder for basic rights rather than gratefully accepting whatever conditions they're pushed into? Conditions British workers rarely agree to.

[Renton 21967]

I'm not sure why you equate Brexit to an isolationist stand point. Surely one of the advantages of Brexit is to be able to deal more freely with the rest of the world.

 

Add to that our history of involvement in world matters or overseas aid. I don't see why we would row back from those positions.

We'd be the only large western European nation not in the EU. We'd be isolated from Europe, who are by far our most important trading partners. Why would splitting from the EU make us closer to non-EU countries? Obama has already expressed his concern over the matter.

[Christmas Tree 4814]

We'd be the only large western European nation not in the EU. We'd be isolated from Europe, who are by far our most important trading partners. Why would splitting from the EU make us closer to non-EU countries? Obama has already expressed his concern over the matter.

What do you mean though by "isolated" from Europe? Trade will still continue, we'll still visit each other, we'll still be involved in the UN and NATO.

 

We just wouldn't be part of the very complex law making side of it.

 

I'm not sure what you envisage by the UK being isolated.

[Renton 21967]

 

Seems to be a contradiction in the "in" campain here.

 

Someone posted the link to this article arguing against Gove's exit rationale..

 

 

https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.ch362hjf6

 

If European law is already so aligned to our values (as the in campain argue) then I don't see a significant worsening of the rights of society.

 

Wouldn't the reduction in free movement of workers from the continent lead to stronger unionised workforces pushing harder for basic rights rather than gratefully accepting whatever conditions they're pushed into? Conditions British workers rarely agree to.

You really think that Brexit will somehow increase the influence of unions?

 

Interesting point about stopping the free movement of people, because of course that will work both ways and could have major negative consequences for many UK citizens working in Europe.

 

I do believe the EU has a lot to answer for regarding its expansionist policies in Eastern Europe. This might be it's downfall.

[Renton 21967]

What do you mean though by "isolated" from Europe? Trade will still continue, we'll still visit each other, we'll still be involved in the UN and NATO.

 

We just wouldn't be part of the very complex law making side of it.

 

I'm not sure what you envisage by the UK being isolated.

We would no longer be even part of the common market, we'd be setting the clock back 40 years. Of course we would be isolated. Try looking at it from the perspective of France, for instance. I think the implications are much bigger than you are suggesting.