Europe --- In or Out

[PaddockLad 17246]

It's the one thing he's been consistent about since he signed up to this forum. Winding people up about stuff they care about to get some attention. It was saying Dennis Wise deserves a shot managing NUFC in the wake of KK's departure then and it's been Mike Ashley's great or the Tories are great or whatever ever else since. He wouldn't say any of this in public either.

He'd have been taking his food via a tube for decades now if he'd carried on like that in every day life. The Internet has been a fuckin boon for social inadequates, they get to act the cunt with no consequences.

[ewerk 30598]

I'm not sure I've ever had an American taxi driver. Every one I've encountered over there was an IMMIGRANT!!!

[Christmas Tree 4725]

He wouldn't say any of this in public either.

Jesus wept man half of the country are saying this sort of thing in public but all the Guardian reading, seed sucking, Costa drinking hand wringers can do is cry racist or morons.

[ewerk 30598]

Jesus wept man half of the country are saying this sort of thing in public but all the Guardian reading, seed sucking, Costa drinking hand wringers can do is cry racist or morons.

 

What is the definition of a recession?

[Alex 35077]

Not like you to deliberately miss the point. Actually, that might be giving you too much credit.

[PaddockLad 17246]

I'm not calling the poor fuckers who's shit lives you celebrate as a success morons or racists. They want some fuckin answers from the wankers you idolise CT (or is that just another wind up?) and they're just being presented with another shit sandwich. But hey, it could be "independence day" soon chums!

[Renton 21611]

I dropped my youngest off at nursery breakfast club this morning and the staff were all happily chuntering about independence day. Given the company of 3 and 4 year olds, I bit my lip. This is one of the few council nurseries surviving after austerity cuts. Fuck knows how they think Brexit will benefit them.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I'm not calling the poor fuckers who's shit lives you celebrate as a success morons or racists. They want some fuckin answers from the wankers you idolise CT (or is that just another wind up?) and they're just being presented with another shit sandwich. But hey, it could be "independence day" soon chums!

No, you sit there in your ivory tower neoliberalism bla bla, all as bad as each other bla bla but that's just la la land as you know. The type of political landscape you want is never coming but the rest of us have to get on and vote / deal with they things are.

 

"Poor fuckers shit lives". How do you know? Sure it would be great in a rosy world where everyone had good jobs, nobody needed benefits, plenty of social housing to go round. I'd vote for that but nobody's offering it.

 

2 million extra low wage jobs does more for families than no jobs.

 

It's so easy to pick fault with no realistic solution.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I dropped my youngest off at nursery breakfast club this morning and the staff were all happily chuntering about independence day. Given the company of 3 and 4 year olds, I bit my lip. This is one of the few council nurseries surviving after austerity cuts. Fuck knows how they think Brexit will benefit them.

Yet it's me that can't speak in public

[Renton 21611]

It's so easy to pick fault with no realistic solution.

Perfectly sums up the Leave campaign that.

[Renton 21611]

Yet it's me that can't speak in public

Read Alex's post again, you've missed the point.

 

Like I'm going to talk politics to nursery staff in front of toddlers.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I'm in the same boat as you CT. No idea which way to go, or even the best arguments either way.

 

As a lefty I should be able to follow my leaders, but half the left say that we should leave for reasons like this..

 

 

and the other half say we have to stay in to limit the worst excesses of the Tories who would be unshackled.

 

Not sure how much I buy the latter scaremongering.

 

Certainly unimpressed by the lack of thinking behind the point that if Bojo and Gove want out we should stay in. Funny in itself, but not really a valid point if Cameron and Osbourne want in, the biggest cunts with the most power. Especially when political alligiances are being formed over this issue for elections to come.

 

Corbyn normally presents his views with facts and ideas well expressed, but in saying he'll campaign to stay in he seems to be using empty rhetoric like "stronger togetrher". Stinks of keeping the right wing of his party onside and picking his battles.

 

So aye, swaying towards out but happy to be corrected on the social benefits of remaining in. Links or thoughts appreciated.

Did you decide?

[ewerk 30598]

Yet it's me that can't speak in public

What is the definition of a recession?

[PaddockLad 17246]

No, you sit there in your ivory tower neoliberalism bla bla, all as bad as each other bla bla but that's just la la land as you know. The type of political landscape you want is never coming but the rest of us have to get on and vote / deal with they things are.

"Poor fuckers shit lives". How do you know? Sure it would be great in a rosy world where everyone had good jobs, nobody needed benefits, plenty of social housing to go round. I'd vote for that but nobody's offering it.

2 million extra low wage jobs does more for families than no jobs.

It's so easy to pick fault with no realistic solution.

Ivory tower? I fuckin guarantee I've been affected more by what some would call EU immigration and the utter failure of neo liberalism than virtually anyone on here. 2008/9 I worked 12 months in 24 due to the recession. What little work there was was taken by polish lads working for half what I'd been on 12 months previously. They didn't take my job though, the U.S. banks and the sub prime mortgage crisis they created took my job. Labours core working class vote are all voting out, for you to ask "how do you know" is to wilfully ignore everything going on around you in the north east of England to prove a spurious point you appear also to have talked yourself out of .

 

Am pleased you agree that there's no choice and were fucked either way. You don't want to consider an alternative though because you've rammed yourself so far up the Tory party's arse you'd need surgery to get yourself out. Or is that a wind up too?

[Happy Face 29]

Did you decide?

 

More or less on Radio 4 have done some good shows on debunking the numbers. Recommended.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jl61s

 

It's the most balanced hour I've seen on the pros and cons. Unfortunately it doesn't sway me in any particular direction either.

 

Think I'll vote to stay purely because I don't feel that European membership causes any problems that would be resolved by leaving.

[Renton 21611]

 

More or less on Radio 4 have done some good shows on debunking the numbers. Recommended.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jl61s

 

It's the most balanced hour I've seen on the pros and cons. Unfortunately it doesn't sway me in any particular direction either.

 

Think I'll vote to stay purely because I don't feel that European membership causes any problems that would be resolved by leaving.

More or less did show up leave as being pathological liars though, and shameless with it. They're still banging on about this mythical 350 million quid a week in their letter to the Metro today. There biggest claim is a proven outright lie, that tells you something about their trustworthiness (and no, not suggesting Remain don't also spin things, just not to the same extent).

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Am pleased you agree that there's no choice and were fucked either way.

That's your view not mine. There's always a choice.

 

There was a choice in 2010 for a conservative government to try and get the country off its knees. That was my choice.

 

There was a choice in 2015 to let them continue growing the economy. That was my choice.

 

Simply sobbing on the sidelines that the whole system is fucked achieves nothing.

 

It's like those pointless MP's on the telly who say, "ah, but this government hasn't built enough houses etc etc". The sheep clap but the reality is its decades since any government have and no future government is going to do anything different. That's just the way public finances and the world is.

 

Tomorrow is another choice. I was fairly undecided at the start of this campaign and whatever happens Friday, life will probably continue pretty much as is. However we all get a vote and mine will be for out. Not because I'm a racist, not because I'm a moron, but because having listened intently to lots of arguments, I believe we will be better off out. Even if that means a little bit of turmoil in the short term.

 

Why?

 

I've lived through a lifetime of a very uneasy relationship between the UK and Europe. We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

 

I think the whole project is unraveling and don't see any advantage of being tied to it politically. Just as we successfully manage to do on lots of issues around the world, I'm sure we can still discuss important issues with our European neighbours and help influence the stuff we want to.

 

As the German BDI leader confirmed today, the desire of big business over there is continue with free trade. I'm pretty confident this will happen whilst at the same time those 6% of British companies that export to the EU can now attack the fast growing trade destinations elsewhere in the world.

 

As for immigration, I'm all for it, however it makes sense to have some controls on the numbers and types of people coming in. We should take as many as WE need. But the crisis of immigration into the EU from the Middle East and Africa is only going to get worse, which will lead to tougher times for the EU.

 

I also like the idea of a British Parliament having total control over what we do as a country. If we want to take VAT off heating bills we should be able to do it. If we want to privatise the railways we should do it.

 

There's loads more but I've got to go out

[Gemmill 44853]

That's your view not mine. There's always a choice.

 

There was a choice in 2010 for a conservative government to try and get the country off its knees. That was my choice.

 

There was a choice in 2015 to let them continue growing the economy. That was my choice.

 

Simply sobbing on the sidelines that the whole system is fucked achieves nothing.

 

It's like those pointless MP's on the telly who say, "ah, but this government hasn't built enough houses etc etc". The sheep clap but the reality is its decades since any government have and no future government is going to do anything different. That's just the way public finances and the world is.

 

Tomorrow is another choice. I was fairly undecided at the start of this campaign and whatever happens Friday, life will probably continue pretty much as is. However we all get a vote and mine will be for out. Not because I'm a racist, not because I'm a moron, but because having listened intently to lots of arguments, I believe we will be better off out. Even if that means a little bit of turmoil in the short term.

 

Why?

 

I've lived through a lifetime of a very uneasy relationship between the UK and Europe. We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

 

I think the whole project is unraveling and don't see any advantage of being tied to it politically. Just as we successfully manage to do on lots of issues around the world, I'm sure we can still discuss important issues with our European neighbours and help influence the stuff we want to.

 

As the German BDI leader confirmed today, the desire of big business over there is continue with free trade. I'm pretty confident this will happen whilst at the same time those 6% of British companies that export to the EU can now attack the fast growing trade destinations elsewhere in the world.

 

As for immigration, I'm all for it, however it makes sense to have some controls on the numbers and types of people coming in. We should take as many as WE need. But the crisis of immigration into the EU from the Middle East and Africa is only going to get worse, which will lead to tougher times for the EU.

 

I also like the idea of a British Parliament having total control over what we do as a country. If we want to take VAT off heating bills we should be able to do it. If we want to privatise the railways we should do it.

 

There's loads more but I've got to go out

Fucking hell. You may as well have farted the national anthem.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

What is the definition of a recession?

It's all to do with things reversing. Not your strongest point.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

More or less on Radio 4 have done some good shows on debunking the numbers. Recommended.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jl61s

 

It's the most balanced hour I've seen on the pros and cons. Unfortunately it doesn't sway me in any particular direction either.

 

Think I'll vote to stay purely because I don't feel that European membership causes any problems that would be resolved by leaving.

That's fair enough. I'll have a listen to those links. Cheers.

[Rayvin 5217]

I do want us to enter into ever closer union with Europe to be honest, but I'm in a very small minority and don't expect to ever see it in my lifetime.

 

The Britain I thought I lived in was diverse, good natured and had a constructive if slightly over-reaching influence on Europe. We lead from the sidelines in the EU, which suits the British way. Germany and France take the headlines, but we manipulate behind the scenes. And I think that's actually something we should be proud of. We should be proud as well of being part of the EU for what it is. I genuinely believe that the rest of the world looks on enviously at Europe, and that our attempts to pull away, if successful, will represent the start of the final decline of the European powers, before we're assimilated into something else in the future - something with which we have even less shared identity.

 

The world has changed, and Britain can't go back in time. The EU is our best chance of preserving what we have.

 

There - that's a load of emotive stuff about Europe aside from all the facts which people are apparently tired of.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Rayvin

[Meenzer 15524]

That's your view not mine. There's always a choice.I've lived through a lifetime of a very uneasy relationship between the UK and Europe. We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

I think the whole project is unraveling and don't see any advantage of being tied to it politically.

 

You see, that's grand. I think we should get over ourselves and work on making that relationship less uneasy, that we should be trying to go more in the same direction, and that - given the geopolitical situation and the fact things aren't going to get any more stable in the wider world - now is precisely the time to be banding together. You disagree, partly because you think our differences are fundamentally too great to overcome within the format of something like the EU and we shouldn't be trying to force something that isn't going to happen. We'll vote accordingly tomorrow, and whatever happens will happen. I just wish more of the actual campaign (from both sides) had been about basic principles and not the stuff it's been focusing on instead. It's been an utterly wasted opportunity to actually have a discourse about it all.

[ewerk 30598]

We don't want to go where they want to go, never have, never will.

 

 

Where is it that they want to go?

 

That Tory wifey kept bleating on last night about an EU tax identification number as if it was clear evidence of an EU superstate when in fact it is more than likely a good thing to simply intra-EU tax and make it easier to detect tax avoidance.

[ewerk 30598]

It's all to do with things reversing. Not your strongest point.

 

A bit like you and anything intellectual.

[NJS 4378]

I think there's an element of people's experiences which forms their opinion - a lot of these working class areas tend towards a negative view of EU immigrants whereas for me working with Germans, French and yes Polish people has been very positive.

 

I do wish more British people would see European as part of their identity as I think it's apparent how much we have in common. As I've said before I think we have layers of tribal identity which starts small and goes all the way to planet level. I don't think there's anything wrong with European being one of those levels.

 

On immigration I'd say that I count myself as an economic migrant albeit internally who moved 300 miles for a better life. The lad next to be moved 12000 miles - I don't see that much difference really though I accept that shared culture helps.