Christmas Tree 4725 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 @Renton I honestly can not see what has happened this week that has reversed your outlook. In December we held a bit of paper up and kicked Ireland down the road. We did the same yesterday. May has been crystal clear, No hard border in Ireland, no border in the Irish Sea. “No British PM could ever sign up to that”. As for Dover, the Governments position (as revealed on QT) is that nothing will change at Dover. We will simply just carry out the same spot checks as we do now. The EU can’t make us stop lorries. Our plan is to be aligned to the EU so in reality there will be nothing unpleasant on the wagons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: @Renton I honestly can not see what has happened this week that has reversed your outlook. In December we held a bit of paper up and kicked Ireland down the road. We did the same yesterday. May has been crystal clear, No hard border in Ireland, no border in the Irish Sea. “No British PM could ever sign up to that”. As for Dover, the Governments position (as revealed on QT) is that nothing will change at Dover. We will simply just carry out the same spot checks as we do now. The EU can’t make us stop lorries. Our plan is to be aligned to the EU so in reality there will be nothing unpleasant on the wagons. It's precisely May's sensible insistence that there will be no hard border in Ireland that pleases me. I believe her. And I believe her because introduction of a border is completely politically unacceptable. Now, leaving the CU and SM is mutually contradictory to this position, so one has to give. And the one that will give will be our stance on the SM and CU. Grayling wasn't quoting government policy last QT, he was making a complete tit of himself. You need to read up about the SM and CU, you really do. I recommend Richard North's blog, and he's a leaver. If we leave the SM and CU, there HAS to be a hard border. The WTO insists on it and the EU has hard borders with all third countries. Besides, it's a two way process. Dover is juxtaposed with the French controlling their border on our side. It is literally impossible for them to let this country traffic into the Union unchecked. Fucking hell man, this is beyond basic. Take your head out your arse and so some research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 In summary, a status quo transition period is a clear indicator to me the status quo will be kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Who'd have thought that the Good Friday Agreement would come to be one of the most important political documents for this country across two different events in two different centuries. Funny how the world works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said: As for Dover, the Governments position (as revealed on QT) is that nothing will change at Dover. We will simply just carry out the same spot checks as we do now. The EU can’t make us stop lorries. Our plan is to be aligned to the EU so in reality there will be nothing unpleasant on the wagons. Unless we agree tariff free trade with the EU then your plan would involve abolishing all tariffs with the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 52 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Who'd have thought that the Good Friday Agreement would come to be one of the most important political documents for this country across two different events in two different centuries. Funny how the world works. Im not going to argue this point to death as it’s purely emotion based, but I fear Rentons misplaced recent euphoria is setting you up for a mighty fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 32 minutes ago, ewerk said: Unless we agree tariff free trade with the EU then your plan would involve abolishing all tariffs with the world. A it’s not my plan and B the majority of imports from around the world to the U.K. roll off a ferry without the vehicle being stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: Im not going to argue this point to death as it’s purely emotion based, but I fear Rentons misplaced recent euphoria is setting you up for a mighty fall. Tbh CT I'm not blind to that realisation. In fact I was just reading through RTG's thread on these developments as they have a wider range of spread in terms of Leavers and Remainers. From what I can tell though, the Leavers look decidedly nervous about that was announced, and there seems to be some sneaking acceptance that they may be about to get shafted. They're being defiant of course, but reading between the lines, you can see the caveats and 'get out clauses' being put into the posts. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that surely, the NI issue can be resolved. But has anyone in government said anything remotely constructive on this point yet? I'm not going to risk a good outcome and may head to the EU before the UK crashes out, but it's still encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: A it’s not my plan and B the majority of imports from around the world to the U.K. roll off a ferry without the vehicle being stopped. Um... not sure about that. We have a right fucking time getting our overseas supplies through customs. Similarly we have challenges in selling books into places like Canada, Brazil, Turkey, Russia because their import tariffs are fucking mental. Brazil is something like 50% of the value of the goods, and Canada is 30% (I think) for anything valued over $11. And these are academic books. Education... you'd think countries around the world would be falling over themselves for this sort of thing. The Americans are quite good for this, they're 0% on educational materials, but everyone else represents varying degrees of challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: A it’s not my plan and B the majority of imports from around the world to the U.K. roll off a ferry without the vehicle being stopped. Dover imports 16 times more EU goods than non-EU goods. Applying the same checks as currently happens would require a massive overhaul that we're not capable of. Not applying those checks could lead to us being viewed as not effectively imposing tariffs on EU goods which would lead to a challenge from non-EU countries to achieve most favoured nation status for all. Edited March 20, 2018 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said: A it’s not my plan and B the majority of imports from around the world to the U.K. roll off a ferry without the vehicle being stopped. No. RoRo ferries are exclusively from EU/EEA countries, not from "around the world". Containers are checked but the urgency is clearly less than at Dover, Calais etc. If you can't be arsed to engage your brain at least do some basic research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said: Im not going to argue this point to death as it’s purely emotion based, but I fear Rentons misplaced recent euphoria is setting you up for a mighty fall. It's not emotion based, it's based on facts and logic. Go on then propose a solution to the Irish border that has us out the SM and CU and doesn't involve border stops. Have you any idea how integrated these countries have become since the GFA? You can't propose a solution because there simply isn't one. Nobody can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 33 minutes ago, Renton said: It's not emotion based, it's based on facts and logic. Go on then propose a solution to the Irish border that has us out the SM and CU and doesn't involve border stops. Have you any idea how integrated these countries have become since the GFA? You can't propose a solution because there simply isn't one. Nobody can. My point is that in 48 hours you’ve gone from Desmond despair to Jonny jubilation based on nothing new occurring. The NI backstop was there in December as was the plan for transition. You’ve just decided to change how you feel. (Which is fine but trying to drag our rayvin in with you....... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 46 minutes ago, Renton said: No. RoRo ferries are exclusively from EU/EEA countries, not from "around the world". Containers are checked but the urgency is clearly less than at Dover, Calais etc. If you can't be arsed to engage your brain at least do some basic research. Only 2% of goods from non eu countries are checked at the border. All clear customs electronically prior to arriving. The obvious solution is a customs agreement (as May has offered) which will no doubt form part of an associate agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: My point is that in 48 hours you’ve gone from Desmond despair to Jonny jubilation based on nothing new occurring. The NI backstop was there in December as was the plan for transition. You’ve just decided to change how you feel. (Which is fine but trying to drag our rayvin in with you....... ) That's fair enough, I am feeling quite chipper about it. I think the transition deal was a major step forward for common sense (BRINO). May is literally climbing down on everything, the transition just delays the inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 11 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Only 2% of goods from non eu countries are checked at the border. All clear customs electronically prior to arriving. The obvious solution is a customs agreement (as May has offered) which will no doubt form part of an associate agreement. I'd be interested in seeing a citation for that but I bet it depends on the type of goods. There's no such thing as a customs agreement, it's just May talk for the customs union. If we are outside the CU that means country of origin checks on our borders. Incompatible in NI. But again, you miss the point. We need to be in both the CU and SM. Why? Do yourself a favour and read this: http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86546 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Only 2% of goods from non eu countries are checked at the border. All clear customs electronically prior to arriving. The obvious solution is a customs agreement (as May has offered) which will no doubt form part of an associate agreement. How does the customs arrangement stop smuggling? How does it ensure that goods passing into the EU meet their regulations? Edited March 20, 2018 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 BTW, anyone watched Soft Border Patrol on iPlayer? Peter Kay-like mockumentary about this issue. Not as funny as the real life situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Brexiters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15526 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Never occurred to them to check whether they could use someone else's property. Zero planning and an absolute sense of entitlement. Funny that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 I’m reminded of the Farage/Geldoff flotilla faceoff in the run up to the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) Yeah but that was too subtle. So here he is now throwing dead fish into a river. Edited March 21, 2018 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35082 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Is the dead, rotting stench of fish a metaphor for UKIP or just the UK in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35082 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: I’m reminded of the Farage/Geldoff flotilla faceoff in the run up to the vote. Did they ever decide who was the biggest arsehole or did they declare it a draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Alex said: Is the dead, rotting stench of fish a metaphor for UKIP or just the UK in general? Or a literal description of Theresa May's gash? [\Gemmill] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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