Europe --- In or Out

[Howmanheyman 32718]

5 hours ago, Gemmill said:

That was tremendous. What the fuck are we doing letting this lot run the country? 

WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!!

[ewerk 30253]

Quote

 

    The US is offering Britain a worse “Open Skies” deal after Brexit than it had as an EU member, in a negotiating stance that would badly hit the transatlantic operating rights of British Airways and Virgin Atlantic.

British and American negotiators secretly met in January for the first formal talks on a new air services deal, aiming to fill the gap created when Britain falls out of the EU-US open skies treaty after Brexit, according to people familiar with talks.

The talks were cut short after US negotiators offered only a standard bilateral agreement. These typically require airlines to be majority owned and controlled by parties from their country of origin.

Such limits would be problematic for British carriers as they have large foreign shareholdings. Under existing arrangements, UK-based airlines are covered by the “Open Skies” treaty that requires them to be majority EU owned..

One person attending the London meetings to “put Humpty Dumpty back together” said: “You can’t just scratch out ‘EU’ and put in ‘UK’.” A British official said it showed “the squeeze” London will face as it tries to reconstruct its international agreements after Brexit, even with close allies such as Washington.

Negotiators are confident of an eventual agreement to keep open the busy UK-US routes, which account for more than a third of current transatlantic flight traffic. But there are legal and political obstacles that could impede the two sides from reaching a deal in time to give legal certainty to airlines booking flights a year in advance.

“We have every confidence that the US and UK will sign a deal that is in everyone’s interests and that IAG will comply with the EU and UK ownership and control regulations post Brexit,” said International Airlines Group, which owns British Airways. Virgin Atlantic said it remained “assured that a new liberal agreement will be reached, allowing us to keep flying to all of our destinations in North America”.

Chris Grayling, UK transport secretary, declared in October that he was making “rapid progress” in reaching ambitious new airline agreements with the US and other international partners. According to FT estimates, the UK must renegotiate and replace about 65 international transport agreements after Brexit.

In its opening stance the US side rolled back valuable elements of the US-EU agreement, the most liberal open skies deal ever agreed by Washington. Its post-Brexit offer to the UK did not include membership of a joint committee on regulatory co-operation or special access to the Fly America programme, which allocates tickets for US government employees. Washington also asked for improved flying rights for US courier services such as FedEx.

The UK has also yet to formally offer the US access to overseas territories such as the British Virgin Islands and Cayman Islands, which were not included as part of the original US-EU deal, according to people familiar with the talks.

There are also potential issues over the continuation of antitrust exemptions, permitted by the US-EU open skies agreement, which allow airline alliances to set fares and share revenue, according to people familiar with talks.

The biggest sticking-point is a standard ownership clause in Washington’s bilateral aviation agreements that would exclude airlines from the deal if “substantial ownership and effective control” does not rest with US or UK nationals respectively. In effect it requires majority ownership by one of the two sides if an airline is to benefit.

London asked the US to adjust its long-held policy since it would exclude the three main British-based transatlantic carriers, which all fall short of the eligibility criteria. These are IAG, the owner of British Airways and Iberia; Virgin Atlantic; and Norwegian UK.

Sir Richard Branson owns 51 per cent of Virgin, making it majority UK-owned. But he is in the process of selling 31 per cent to Air France-KLM, which could complicate Virgin’s access rights to the US. US airline Delta owns the remaining stake.

The challenge is most acute for Willie Walsh, IAG chief executive, whose group must also clear the EU’s 50 per cent ownership threshold to avoid losing his European operating rights after Brexit, when UK nationals are no longer counted.

One senior EU official said the airline operator was heading for “a crunch”. “From the US point of view, there is not a single big airline that is UK-owned and controlled,” he said. “The Americans will play it hard. The mood has changed [against liberalisation], it’s the worst time to be negotiating.”

“The EU has been arguing for a change to the ownership and control rule for decades but the US has never said yes. It’s been a sticking point forever. If the US has never bent before then why would they do it just for the UK?” he said, adding that such a change could set a big precedent.

British negotiators are hopeful the ownership issues can be addressed through a side agreement or memorandum of understanding giving airlines solid legal rights. But so far the US side has not gone beyond offering temporary “waivers”, on a case-by-case basis to airlines.

The UK’s EU membership also prevents the country from signing trade or aviation services agreements before the end of March 2019 when Britain is due to leave the bloc. The EU’s Brexit negotiators are insisting it seek permission for deals during any transition period.

British negotiators are hoping to convince partners such as the US to treat them as EU members during the transition period, so they do not automatically fall out of agreements during that period.

A senior UK government source said it was “nonsense to suggest that planes won’t fly between UK and US post-Brexit. Both sides have a strong interest in reaching an agreement and are very close to one.”

The US also played down fears of a looming crisis.

“Our shared aim with the United Kingdom is to ensure the smoothest possible transition in the transatlantic market,” said the state department. “Commercial aviation is key to the dynamic economic relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom. Discussions are going well and, while specific dates are not set, we plan to meet again soon.”
 

   https://www.ft.com/content/9461157c-1f97-11e8-9efc-0cd3483b8b80

 

But they're still going to give us a cracking trade deal.

[Rayvin 5176]

Not looking to healthy for the EU in Italy at the moment. Immigration not just an issue in the UK it seems.

[Gemmill 44357]

Ian Duncan Smith standing up in Parliament and asking May if she'll tell the EU that "cake exists to be eaten and cherries exist to be picked".

 

What a little cunt he is. 

[ewerk 30253]

And bullshitters exist to bullshit.

[Alex 34827]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Ian Duncan Smith standing up in Parliament and asking May if she'll tell the EU that "cake exists to be eaten and cherries exist to be picked".

 

What a little cunt he is. 

Oh, isn't that clever? FFS

[Andrew 4718]

6 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Ian Duncan Smith standing up in Parliament and asking May if she'll tell the EU that "cake exists to be eaten and cherries exist to be picked".

 

What a little cunt he is. 

 

He doesn't understand what "have your cake and eat it" means does he?

[Gemmill 44357]

His bollocks exist to be kicked. 

[ewerk 30253]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-british-can-t-deliver-promises-of-frictionless-trade-1.3415561

An interesting short read on what most of us already know. Any technological border solution for Ireland is pie in the sky and even if it is possible it is light years away from being ready for use.

While most of the focus of late has been on the Irish border there are also huge questions to be asked of how the UK's main trade routes with Europe like Dover-Calais are going to deal with customs and regulatory checks. The infrastructure to do it in a timely manner is also many years from being created.

[Renton 21286]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-british-can-t-deliver-promises-of-frictionless-trade-1.3415561

An interesting short read on what most of us already know. Any technological border solution for Ireland is pie in the sky and even if it is possible it is light years away from being ready for use.

While most of the focus of late has been on the Irish border there are also huge questions to be asked of how the UK's main trade routes with Europe like Dover-Calais are going to deal with customs and regulatory checks. The infrastructure to do it in a timely manner is also many years from being created.

May says a hard Brexit is still a possibility. No it isn't. Where are the recruitment adverts for customs officers? Where is even the planning permission for lorry parks etc? Even if everything was in place, "just in time" industries would be devastated overnight. Also May said yesterday she was considering the US Canada border as a model for NI. That entails border posts, road blocks, armed guards etc. And these countries are in a comprehensive FTA (NAFTA)! Aye, nice one May.

 

I've heard that airline tickets post 2019 are going to have disclaimers saying the flight will only happen if there 8s regulatory agreement to allow for it. There won't be if we hard Brexit. Shit is getting real. 

[Rayvin 5176]

It's going to be fascinating to see what happens but it's hard to imagine it isn't under control on some level. We're not hearing panic at the high levels from either the UK or the EU. The Tories will muddle through it somehow because that's what they seem to do.

[ewerk 30253]

They've muddled through this far because they've been able to talk in shit cliches and tell the Brexiters what they want to hear.

As we've seen with the draft legal text, the moment they've been faced with formally committing to something they've shit the bed. This is despite the fact that it only reflects what they agreed a few months ago. The time for bluster is over. Real decisions have to be made now. We've seen the PM admit in her Mansion House statement that we will have reduced access to the single market. What she should have said is that the country will be poorer than it was previously. And if the hard Brexiters get their way, as is looking increasingly likely, we're going to be poorer by a great deal.

[Renton 21286]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

It's going to be fascinating to see what happens but it's hard to imagine it isn't under control on some level. We're not hearing panic at the high levels from either the UK or the EU. The Tories will muddle through it somehow because that's what they seem to do.

 

I can't see any options but for a complete back down by May or catastrophe now. For instance, we conveniently want associate membership of various agencies such as EASA and EMA. Leaving aside this makes us rule takers and therefore is a loss of sovereignty (as well as cost a fortune), there is real doubt a third country seeking to diverge from the EU can legally join these bodies.

 

I honestly don't know what the fuck is go8ng on but I am convinced we are witnessing utter incompetence by the government. 

[Alex 34827]

May's just desperately clinging to power and is foregoing both her own beliefs and the good of the country in the process. The archetypal Tory in the most unfortunate of times and circumstances.

[Renton 21286]

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

May's just desperately clinging to power and is foregoing both her own beliefs and the good of the country in the process. The archetypal Tory in the most unfortunate of times and circumstances.

 

I have to say, even I am surprised with the cuntfuckery of the current conservative government and party. This is unprecedented. Would you buy a used car from any of the following?

 

Theresa May.

Boris Johnson.

Liam Fox.

David Davis.

JRM.

IDS.

Priti Patel.

Theresa Villiers.

Steve Baker.

Andrea Leadsom.

Jeremy Cunt.

 

Or Kate Hooey or any of the DUP.

 

Never has politics been so toxic and incompetent. 

 

[Alex 34827]

May's arguably the best of that bunch as well

[Dr Gloom 21812]

Best PM of my little girl’s lifetime 

[Rayvin 5176]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

May's arguably the best of that bunch as well

 

Actually think JRM would be a better leader than May, as horrific as he is ideologically. He has the confidence and certainty of self to actually lead. I mean, he'd be leading us to hell, but it would be a far less shambolic journey.

[Alex 34827]

That's basically saying he'd be better at being worse

[Renton 21286]

Fuck me, I even missed out Michal Gove. Sooo many to choose from. Horrific.

[Gemmill 44357]

ewerk, is it true that Arlene Foster is the best looking woman in NI? 

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Alex said:

That's basically saying he'd be better at being worse

 

Well yeah, but I prefer a quick death to a slow, incompetent one. And IMO, it's death either way at this point. Largely given up on any positive outcome for the whole Brexit fiasco.

[Alex 34827]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Well yeah, but I prefer a quick death to a slow, incompetent one. And IMO, it's death either way at this point. Largely given up on any positive outcome for the whole Brexit fiasco.

Aye, I know what you mean. It's a case of what type of bread you want with your shit sandwich

[Renton 21286]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

ewerk, is it true that Arlene Foster is the best looking woman in NI? 

 

Is she a woman?

[Renton 21286]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Well yeah, but I prefer a quick death to a slow, incompetent one. And IMO, it's death either way at this point. Largely given up on any positive outcome for the whole Brexit fiasco.

 

If JRM went against Corbyn in a GE, and won, would you accept Corbyn is fucking useless?