Europe --- In or Out

[ewerk 30253]

23 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No, see Switzerland. But realistically we need to be in both EEA and CU for northern Ireland. This is the reality that may et al are in denial of.

Yeah but they are in the single market in all but name? Freedom of movement isn't Brexit.

[Renton 21286]

7 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Yeah but they are in the single market in all but name? Freedom of movement isn't Brexit.

As you know, there's a hell of a lot we could do domestically to limit the impact of FoM, but have chosen not to. I think there could be done negotiated concessions as well. Compared to Ireland, with a bit of spin FoM is not an insoluble issue. It would have been a lot easier had Blair got his ID cards which much of Europe use.

 

May must be looking for a way out, not for the sake of the country, but for herself personally and her party. Re-branding is her best bet imo. 

[ewerk 30253]

I can't see the hardliners in her party going for it. I really don't see a way out of this for her.

[ewerk 30253]

There seems to be a lot of ‘trust us’ in this speech.

[ewerk 30253]

May still refusing to say if Brexit is worth it.  

[Dr Gloom 21812]

 

someone remind me why we're leaving again? 

[Dr Gloom 21812]

good analysis point by point in this thread

 

 

[Renton 21286]

14 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

someone remind me why we're leaving again? 

 

To take back control of our borders. By having totally open borders.

 

Honestly, what a crock of shit. We will take what we are given by the EU, surely this is obvious now. 

[Alex 34827]

It's hilarious like. We're basically going to try and keep everything the way it is but still say we're leaving and the latter is to try and appease the sort of people who'll be pissed off with that scenario anyway. You really couldn't make it up

[ewerk 30253]

Her plan is entirely unworkable. She wants to maintain the trade of goods by maintaining existing standards or their equivalents with any disputes being settled by an independent body. Fair enough. But she also wants the ability to diverge in the future and is willing to accept that this may affect our access to the single market. Again, fair enough. But how does this affect the Irish border? It will inevitably lead to border checks in the future and the EU will not countenance this.

Also, the idea of collecting customs for goods intended for the EU and not for internal markets pre-supposes that importers are going to be honest about the final destination of the goods. The EU will not agree to the idea of an entirely open border in Ireland allowing a gateway to smugglers.

[Renton 21286]

I also love how she says her vision will appeal to both leavers and remainers. No it won't, it'll appeal to no-one.

 

Reminds me of Barry from Auf Wiedersehen (paraphrase) "Everybody gets what nobody wants. That's democracy" 

[ewerk 30253]

Nothing from @Christmas Tree  in ages in this thread but one mention of broadband and it gets a near instant reply. Maybe things aren't going as well as he thought.

[Renton 21286]

It's interesting May has conceded there will be no financial passporting BTW. That's a loss to the exchequer of about 100 million a week. Perhaps we can take it from the NHS instead? 

[Christmas Tree 4685]

33 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Nothing from @Christmas Tree  in ages in this thread but one mention of broadband and it gets a near instant reply. Maybe things aren't going as well as he thought.

 

There’s no sensible discussion in here anymore. It’s just endless attempts at point scoring from some, seething neurotic behaviour from others or short sentences made up of “thick”, “cunt” and “Tory”.  Sorry, I’m bored with it

 

As for her speech I think given the splits in the country and political party’s it was good. She laid out a fairly clear opening negotiating position and hopefully the two sides can make progress when talks start next month.

 

Naturally it won’t appeal to some ultra leavers and some ultra remainers but I think the majority in the middle just want her to get on and get it done.

 

I have no time at all for the ultra defeatists who hang on every word of the EU’s negotiating starting point and just want to roll over before negotiations begin.

 

And my router hasn’t arrived yet

(Hope the posties out sledging with his kids).

[Alex 34827]

Thick Tory cunt

[Renton 21286]

7 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

There’s no sensible discussion in here anymore. It’s just endless attempts at point scoring from some, seething neurotic behaviour from others or short sentences made up of “thick”, “cunt” and “Tory”.  Sorry, I’m bored with it

 

As for her speech I think given the splits in the country and political party’s it was good. She laid out a fairly clear opening negotiating position and hopefully the two sides can make progress when talks start next month.

 

Naturally it won’t appeal to some ultra leavers and some ultra remainers but I think the majority in the middle just want her to get on and get it done.

 

I have no time at all for the ultra defeatists who hang on every word of the EU’s negotiating starting point and just want to roll over before negotiations begin.

 

And my router hasn’t arrived yet

(Hope the posties out sledging with his kids).

Thing is, a negotiation as asymetrical as this isn't really a negotiation. We'll be made an offer we literally can't refuse, because of international commitments (GFA) and lack of infrastructure (Dover etc). So far the EU hasn't budged an inch and all May has done is backtrack. 

 

How this pans out politically remains to be seen. 

[Dr Gloom 21812]

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/03/02/the-snowed-in-speech-may-pedals-furiously-down-a-dead-end

[ewerk 30253]

2 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

There’s no sensible discussion in here anymore. It’s just endless attempts at point scoring from some, seething neurotic behaviour from others or short sentences made up of “thick”, “cunt” and “Tory”.  Sorry, I’m bored with it

 

As for her speech I think given the splits in the country and political party’s it was good. She laid out a fairly clear opening negotiating position and hopefully the two sides can make progress when talks start next month.

 

Naturally it won’t appeal to some ultra leavers and some ultra remainers but I think the majority in the middle just want her to get on and get it done.

 

I have no time at all for the ultra defeatists who hang on every word of the EU’s negotiating starting point and just want to roll over before negotiations begin.

 

And my router hasn’t arrived yet

(Hope the posties out sledging with his kids).

 

You get called a thick, fat, baldy, spastic Tory cunt because of your refusal to acknowledge facts. It was a fact that the phase 1 agreement would be translated into legal text yet you refused to acknowledge that because the Tories came out with the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' line. Politics isn't sport, it isn't about blindly following one side, it's actually easy to be objective and take each policy and action as it comes. Of course left and right tendencies emerge but if you stick to the facts then you won't be too far from the truth.

As Renton says, it isn't a negotiation. The EU may concede a few points here and there but they very much have the upper hand due to the fact their economy is much larger than ours and they possess the infrastructure and agencies that we need to continue using post-Brexit. We need them much more than they need us. These are the facts. Continually ignoring them doesn't do the country any good whatsoever.

Edited March 2, 2018 by ewerk

[Christmas Tree 4685]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

 

You get called a thick, fat, baldy, spastic Tory cunt because of your refusal to acknowledge facts. It was a fact that the phase 1 agreement would be translated into legal text yet you refused to acknowledge that because the Tories came out with the 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' line. 

 

This illustrates perfectly why its so tedious discussing this with yourself or Renton. Pure history reinventing.

 

I explained clearly in December that Phase 1 was a fudge to get us to phase 2. I didn't refuse to "acknowledge" it, I tried to explain several times to you all, that it would only become legal as part of the withdrawal agreement in October 2018 and would be dependent on us having the "bones" of a trade deal agreed. I explained to you that "Nothing is agreed til everything is agreed" was on the phase 1 document produced by the EU. You and Renton were adamant that I was wrong and it would happen very quickly. 

 

The transition period is virtually a done deal, we are about to start discussing the trade deal and the legal text you were so sure would be legislation in January is still (as I said then) not due to become legal until October 2018. 

 

https://www.toontastic.net/board/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=33906&content_commentid=1503168

 

https://www.toontastic.net/board/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=33906&content_commentid=1503310

 

As I said earlier, its all a bit boring now because of the polarized positions people have adopted and the manner in which those views are exchanged. 

 

[ewerk 30253]

Okay, I apologise. You're not ignoring the facts. You're just too stupid to comprehend them.

You've quoted me as saying that phase 2 talks will not progress until the phase 1 agreement is translated into legislation. That is exactly what the EU has published this week.

The transition period that you claim is pretty much a done deal is literally defined by and included in the draft legislation that you refuse to believe exists.  

You honestly should not be allowed to vote.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

41 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Okay, I apologise. You're not ignoring the facts. You're just too stupid to comprehend them.

You've quoted me as saying that phase 2 talks will not progress until the phase 1 agreement is translated into legislation. That is exactly what the EU has published this week.

The transition period that you claim is pretty much a done deal is literally defined by and included in the draft legislation that you refuse to believe exists.  

You honestly should not be allowed to vote.

 

A perfect example of why it’s a waste of time.

 

Phase 1 will not be translated into legislation until October, as I said in December and you and Renton wouldn’t have.

 

Nothing agreed til everything is agreed

 

Re the transition, they noted we wanted one in December, not agreed to it. 

 

Phase 2 talks start very shortly and the phase 1 draft will still not be in legislation. 

 

Stupidity and a lack of comprehension are all yours.

 

Im out x

[Renton 21286]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

This illustrates perfectly why its so tedious discussing this with yourself or Renton. Pure history reinventing.

 

I explained clearly in December that Phase 1 was a fudge to get us to phase 2. I didn't refuse to "acknowledge" it, I tried to explain several times to you all, that it would only become legal as part of the withdrawal agreement in October 2018 and would be dependent on us having the "bones" of a trade deal agreed. I explained to you that "Nothing is agreed til everything is agreed" was on the phase 1 document produced by the EU. You and Renton were adamant that I was wrong and it would happen very quickly. 

 

The transition period is virtually a done deal, we are about to start discussing the trade deal and the legal text you were so sure would be legislation in January is still (as I said then) not due to become legal until October 2018. 

 

https://www.toontastic.net/board/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=33906&content_commentid=1503168

 

https://www.toontastic.net/board/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=33906&content_commentid=1503310

 

As I said earlier, its all a bit boring now because of the polarized positions people have adopted and the manner in which those views are exchanged. 

 

 

Come on, it's a message board where you always take a contrary view, of course people are going to take the piss. For me, I just find your blind optimism in the absence of any evidence very irritating. It's true of all leavers I've encountered though, they're not arsed about evidence or analysis, they just want out for reasons they can't even articulate. It wouldn't matter if it wasn't so important, but it is. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Renton

[Renton 21286]

17 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

A perfect example of why it’s a waste of time.

 

Phase 1 will not be translated into legislation until October, as I said in December and you and Renton wouldn’t have.

 

Nothing agreed til everything is agreed

 

Re the transition, they noted we wanted one in December, not agreed to it. 

 

Phase 2 talks start very shortly and the phase 1 draft will still not be in legislation. 

 

Stupidity and a lack of comprehension are all yours.

 

Im out x

 

Well that seems highly debatable, there's many many publications that have stated phase one will have to be made legally binding before phase 2 begins. Example (literally  dozens of others):

 

http://www.osborneclarke.com/insights/brexit-briefing-a-timeline-of-what-to-expect-in-2018/

 

But, in the interests of balance, this suggests you might be technically correct, although the political implications mean that phase one is de facto legally binding:

 

http://theconversation.com/eu-law-expert-how-binding-is-the-brexit-deal-88993

 

I'd be interested to know what your source is, you seem to have given up on backing up any of your points with citations.

 

Regardless, it's a fact we won't progress to any sort of deal unless phase one is complied with. This includes the thorny issue of NI which you've never offered an opinion on. I'd genuinely like to hear anyone say how the circle can be squared. May's speech today dodged the issue yet again. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Renton

[ewerk 30253]

Hey, @Christmas Tree , ever get the feeling you've been lied to?

 

 

 

[Gemmill 44357]

That was tremendous. What the fuck are we doing letting this lot run the country?