Europe --- In or Out

[Alex 34821]

13 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

Aye, but it's not rocket science to suggest that doing everything on the EU's terms and prioritising things on their terms will leave us even more at their mercy

What are their terms regarding this issue beyond asking how we propose to handle the new arrangements at the border? I don't think it's a case of holding out in the hope of gaining more leverage, it's simply trying to make it look the EU is being unreasonable because there's no actual plan as to how to sort out border arrangements. It's frankly an absolute joke that all the pro-Brexit members of the government and UKIP etc. had no idea how to sort this issue and still don't. Just shows what a useless* bunch of chancers they are.

* Unless you count conning morons

Edited November 27, 2017 by Alex

[Alex 34821]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Meanwhile not everyone in the UK agrees.

 

 

Well it worked for Trump

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

5 minutes ago, Alex said:

What are their terms regarding this issue beyond asking how we propose to handle the new arrangements at the border? I don't think it's a case of holding out in the hope of gaining more leverage, it's simply trying to make it look the EU is being unreasonable because there's no actual plan as to how to sort out border arrangements. It's frankly an absolute joke that all the pro-Brexit members of the government and UKIP etc. had no idea how to sort this issue and still don't. Just shows what a useless* bunch of chancers they are.

* Unless you count conning morons

 

Agreed, that's why trying to sort a trade deal beforehand would be the most agreeable way forward for the UK.

[Alex 34821]

Just now, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

Agreed, that's why trying to sort a trade deal beforehand would be the most agreeable way forward for the UK.

Yes, but it also demonstrates the UK has zero leverage on the Irish border issue. What are we supposed to threaten them with like? If they don't hold trade talks first then we won't implement the Irish border plan that we don't have?

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

Yes, but it also demonstrates the UK has zero leverage on the Irish border issue. What are we supposed to threaten them with like? If they don't hold trade talks first then we won't implement the Irish border plan that we don't have?

 

 I know what you mean, but isn't that what they've done to us with trade? By vetoing all talk of it until after x,y and z they're effectively threatening us with a plan that doesn't yet exist.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

From day one the UK has said the Irish border would only be resolved as part of trade talks.  We are aiming for some sort of associate agreement and some sort of bespoke customs union that would solve all of this. This is otherwise known as the cake and eating it plan.

 

The EU has had a good willy wave but now that the money is on the table they will play nice. That Vladimir bloke will be told to wind his neck in and let the big boys sort it out.

 

This is a negotiation and the idea we should concede every issue is daft.

[Alex 34821]

12 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

 I know what you mean, but isn't that what they've done to us with trade? By vetoing all talk of it until after x,y and z they're effectively threatening us with a plan that doesn't yet exist.

It's a fucking mess and make no mistake.

[Alex 34821]

5 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

From day one the UK has said the Irish border would only be resolved as part of trade talks.  We are aiming for some sort of associate agreement and some sort of bespoke customs union that would solve all of this. This is otherwise known as the cake and eating it plan.

 

The EU has had a good willy wave but now that the money is on the table they will play nice. That Vladimir bloke will be told to wind his neck in and let the big boys sort it out.

 

This is a negotiation and the idea we should concede every issue is daft.

Cracking

[ewerk 30238]

12 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

From day one the UK has said the Irish border would only be resolved as part of trade talks. 

 

 

That is absolutely untrue.

 

Educate yourself.

 

 

[Alex 34821]

Proves my point about them being good at conning morons though

[Howmanheyman 32715]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

But we should want the border issue resolved first too...

 

We're back to holding a gun to our own heads and threatening to pull the trigger again I see.

I think I might've reported this post or something? Err.....any mods reading this feel free to disregard. Anyway, carry on Adolf.

[Renton 21269]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

From day one the UK has said the Irish border would only be resolved as part of trade talks.  We are aiming for some sort of associate agreement and some sort of bespoke customs union that would solve all of this. This is otherwise known as the cake and eating it plan.

 

The EU has had a good willy wave but now that the money is on the table they will play nice. That Vladimir bloke will be told to wind his neck in and let the big boys sort it out.

 

This is a negotiation and the idea we should concede every issue is daft.

 

Firstly, Davis agreed in the first morning there would be no progress to trade talks without a solution to the NI border. Secondly, May has already clearly stated she wants us out the SM and CU. The EU have always stated there will be no favourable bespoke deals.This makes a hard border inevitable.

 

The only question is where the border should be. For numerous practical reasons and because it would break the GFA, it can't be the land border. But the DUP, who are propping up the Tories, insist it can't be a sea border. The deadlock is irreconcilable and is why Brexit will fail 

 

Interestingly, if you do a bit of research, you will find out that FOM and tariffs are not the issue, it's the practical barriers posed by non-tariff barriers. Pay attention to this tubs. Even if we had a truly comprehensive FTA with some weird CU that could circumvent the multiple problems on that front, we would still need to have a visible border with checks and patrols. This would inevitably lead to serious civil unrest. I doubt you have the motivation or intellect to find out why, but for those interested I suggest you read this. The author, Richard North, is a brexiter who campaigned for Leave.EU, mistakenly believing we would join EFTA.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86546

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Renton

[Renton 21269]

Btw, the idea we can use the situation as leverage is pretty disgusting when the peace process is at stake. Typical little Englander British imperialist mentality. How to win friends and influence people, not. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

Btw, the idea we can use the situation as leverage is pretty disgusting when the peace process is at stake. Typical little Englander British imperialist mentality. How to win friends and influence people, not. 

 

It's not like you to over react. It's posturing at the end of the day. In the same way the eu is using a trade deal as leverage for the divorce settlement. A poor trade deal could force thousands more families into poverty etc. Disgusting.

[ewerk 30238]

Which part of Brexit did the EU force on us?

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

None. We should just bend over then.

[Park Life 71]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

Btw, the idea we can use the situation as leverage is pretty disgusting when the peace process is at stake. Typical little Englander British imperialist mentality. How to win friends and influence people, not. 

The history of this board tbh.

[Renton 21269]

11 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

It's not like you to over react. It's posturing at the end of the day. In the same way the eu is using a trade deal as leverage for the divorce settlement. A poor trade deal could force thousands more families into poverty etc. Disgusting.

It's not over reacting to point out that the peace process is at risk if the GFA is broken by a Tory government supported by the DUP. Quite incredible for you to think this in fact.

 

In fact, I think you're wrong that any of the three divorce issues are negotiable to a meaningful extent. They're not. We have to agree to these before trade talks begin. We have to pay money we owe, continue to support the peace process, and guarantee EU citizens rights if we don't want to end up an isolated pariah state. Which is the direction we're heading under this shit storm.

 

The EU hold all the cards. Who would have predicted it?

[Park Life 71]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

It's not over reacting to point out that the peace process is at risk if the GFA is broken by a Tory government supported by the DUP. Quite incredible for you to think this in fact.

 

In fact, I think you're wrong that any of the three divorce issues are negotiable to a meaningful extent. They're not. We have to agree to these before trade talks begin. We have to pay money we owe, continue to support the peace process, and guarantee EU citizens rights if we don't want to end up an isolated pariah state. Which is the direction we're heading under this shit storm.

 

The EU hold all the cards. Who would have predicted it?

Although I generally agree its a bit of s stretch to say they hold all the cards.

[Renton 21269]

2 minutes ago, Park Life said:

Although I generally agree its a bit of s stretch to say they hold all the cards.

 

Brexit could hurt them but could destroy us. It's an existential threat to the UK, not the EU.

 

In particular, Germany's economy is doing what it always does, thriving. What a joke people think we are better off having them as competitors rather than allies. Brexit will expose our woeful productivity like never before, we'll have our pants round our ankles with a stinging trickle of piss running down our leg and into our shoes. Then the big boys will arrive (US and China) and reality will really set in. 

[Christmas Tree 4685]

Jesus Wept

[Dr Gloom 21809]

5 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

From day one the UK has said the Irish border would only be resolved as part of trade talks.  We are aiming for some sort of associate agreement and some sort of bespoke customs union that would solve all of this. This is otherwise known as the cake and eating it plan.

 

The EU has had a good willy wave but now that the money is on the table they will play nice. That Vladimir bloke will be told to wind his neck in and let the big boys sort it out.

 

This is a negotiation and the idea we should concede every issue is daft.

 

have we reached peak CT?  

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

42 minutes ago, Renton said:

It's not over reacting to point out that the peace process is at risk if the GFA is broken by a Tory government supported by the DUP. Quite incredible for you to think this in fact.

 

In fact, I think you're wrong that any of the three divorce issues are negotiable to a meaningful extent. They're not. We have to agree to these before trade talks begin. We have to pay money we owe, continue to support the peace process, and guarantee EU citizens rights if we don't want to end up an isolated pariah state. Which is the direction we're heading under this shit storm.

 

The EU hold all the cards. Who would have predicted it?

 

Like I said, it's posturing. It's just an attempt to bring forward trade talks. Not worth pissing your pants over. 

 

I don't think the divorce issues are negotiable to any meaningful extent, it's a shit show. However, there has to be some strategy for trying to get the best of a bad situation. I'm not sure how you think they should approach it. 

[Renton 21269]

8 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Jesus Wept

 

What bit? 

 

Existential threat? Yes, I think this could lead to breakup of the UK.

 

Happy competing with Germany? Maybe some sectors but years of investment give them huge advantage in innovation, plus they have a much stronger economy and lead a huge reading bloc.

 

Cracking deals with world super powers? Dream on. 

 

Anyway, tell me how the Irish border issue will be resolved. Asked you several times now. 

[Gemmill 44342]

The idea that there's any strategy to what the Tories are doing re Ireland gives them way too much credit. They haven't got a fucking clue - it's depressing how thick the people involved are, and how arrogant with fuck all to back it up.