Europe --- In or Out

[Meenzer 15392]

Only if Labour can be dragged back to a slightly more centrist position without having to become ZaNu-LieBore!!1 again. It's increasingly clear that we can't have PM Corbyn and Britain in the EU or any arrangement that approximates it.

[Rayvin 5176]

10 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

Only if Labour can be dragged back to a slightly more centrist position without having to become ZaNu-LieBore!!1 again. It's increasingly clear that we can't have PM Corbyn and Britain in the EU.

 

You think so? I think Corbyn is more pro-immigration than he is anti-EU. I think they would have come out and said they were going to support single market access and perhaps a second referendum if they weren't walking an electoral tightrope between the working class and the educated middles. If they feel a moment comes when they can swing themselves behind a softer exit (or no exit at all), I think they'll take it. Even under Corbyn.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30250]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You think so? I think Corbyn is more pro-immigration than he is anti-EU.

 

How do you figure that Corbyn is pro-immigration? He certainly isn't all for free movement.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3809]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You think so? I think Corbyn is more pro-immigration than he is anti-EU. I think they would have come out and said they were going to support single market access and perhaps a second referendum if they weren't walking an electoral tightrope between the working class and the educated middles. If they feel a moment comes when they can swing themselves behind a softer exit (or no exit at all), I think they'll take it. Even under Corbyn.

 

I don't, they are too scared of losing seats, and Corbyn would prefer hard brexit to no brexit because he is not actually very intelligent and thinks he can re organise British unionism when he is free of the market shackles of imperialist Europe.

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

How do you figure that Corbyn is pro-immigration? He certainly isn't all for free movement.

 

Well, just based on what the guy has said to be honest. He himself has said he is pro-immigration, does not feel immigration from the EU is too high, and was clear that what we really need is a sensible immigration policy that benefits the country as a whole rather than just those at the top who use it to drive down wages. How achievable that is within the framework of the EU is another story, but other countries seem to manage it. He's been hammered for not being hard enough on immigration by the right.

 

I don't think he's anti-free movement, I just think that's part of the fudge. If I was him, the goal would be to demonstrate that improvement in the lives of working and lower middle class people is possible through better domestic government and more equitable distribution of wealth, and not through vilifying foreigners - and to then push us towards retaining as much of our EU membership as possible.

[Alex 34822]

Corbyn's never going to be PM anyway

[ewerk 30250]

18 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Well, just based on what the guy has said to be honest. He himself has said he is pro-immigration, does not feel immigration from the EU is too high, and was clear that what we really need is a sensible immigration policy that benefits the country as a whole rather than just those at the top who use it to drive down wages. How achievable that is within the framework of the EU is another story, but other countries seem to manage it. He's been hammered for not being hard enough on immigration by the right.

 

I don't think he's anti-free movement, I just think that's part of the fudge. If I was him, the goal would be to demonstrate that improvement in the lives of working and lower middle class people is possible through better domestic government and more equitable distribution of wealth, and not through vilifying foreigners - and to then push us towards retaining as much of our EU membership as possible.

 

The end of free movement is part of his reasoning for wanting to leave the single market. He has claimed that it has destroyed the conditions of British workers.

[Rayvin 5176]

59 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

The end of free movement is part of his reasoning for wanting to leave the single market. He has claimed that it has destroyed the conditions of British workers.

 

Yes but Labour has claimed a lot of not entirely consistent things over the past few months. I'm not actually a big fan of them doing this because I prefer them to just be open about it, but pragmatically I think they're doing the right thing if they're serious about winning power.

 

I don't approve, but there it is.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Rayvin

[Renton 21276]

Corbyn is more contrary than my 4 year old, he never sends out a consistent view. I've also noticed, now he thinks he can sniff out being PM, he has become even more evasive and politician like. Maybe that's necessary. I don't think he's a man of conviction though, just an opportunist now like the rest of them. 

 

Edit: cross post with Rayvin, seems we agree. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Renton

[Christmas Tree 4685]

Labour are playing a blinder over Brexit, ruling nothing in or out. What's changed with Corbyn / Labour is that now there is a fairly solid "cabinet" behind him with a lot more intelligent / ambitious performers. They realise that his EU views are at odds with the Glastonbury crowds he appeals too. 

 

He is now the frontman but the "power" has shifted to the serious politicians behind him who understand government is within reach.

 

The conservatives have ran out of talent however Labour have still to get over the spend spend spend credibility issues to get those extra 60 seats.

[Alex 34822]

Hope that turns out better than your predictions re: the rise of UKIP

[Park Life 71]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

Corbyn is more contrary than my 4 year old, he never sends out a consistent view. I've also noticed, now he thinks he can sniff out being PM, he has become even more evasive and politician like. Maybe that's necessary. I don't think he's a man of conviction though, just an opportunist now like the rest of them. 

 

Edit: cross post with Rayvin, seems we agree. 

It's all about the feedback Labour are getting from their researchers. The country is on the edge with reg to Brexit...As soon as they get the greenlight Labour will push this single market stuff to the front burner. Not ideal but the nature of UK politics right now is that Brexit is too hot to handle if you take too firm a position and don't take the country with you. Labour have their eye on power. As I've maintained all along proper Brexit won't happen anyway...Already been pushed back to 2021.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Park Life

[Renton 21276]

16 minutes ago, Park Life said:

It's all about the feedback Labour are getting from their researchers. The country is on the edge with reg to Brexit...As soon as they get the greenlight Labour will push this single market stuff to the front burner. Not ideal but the nature of UK politics right now is that Brexit is too hot to handle if you take too firm a position and don't take the country with you. Labour have their eye on power. As I've maintained all along proper Brexit won't happen anyway...Already been pushed back to 2021.

Think I agree actually. We're jst a few months into negotiations and it's going spectacularly tits up. No way can Brexit go ahead how the loony Tory right wingers want it to, business just won't allow it and in a year's time even the average Mackem will see what a mistake it is.

 

I think it's fairly obvious what we need. We need to stay in the SM as a Norway type associate member. We need to keep in the CU indefinitely. We need to negotiate some sensible compromise on FOM, which can probably be done in the current framework. We need to keep paying the EU for access as well as for the various organisational arrangements. We won't be directly under ECJ but we will be de facto indirectly. It's not a big deal, we have full sovereignty over all important aspects already. 

 

This arrangement would be supported by most but the most rabid brexiters who can go fuck themselves tbh. It'll be acceptable to >50%. It'll solve the NI issue. It'll allow frictionless trade. It'll allow us to export services and protect the financial centre. We won't be able to strike our own deals but there is no advantage in that anyway. Soon the EU will have trade agreements with all the big players anyway.

 

The biggest advantage I see from this is it will allow us to disentangle ourselves from the political aspects of the EU but will protect our industry. The EU will then be able to forge ahead in closer union. I'd personally rather be part of this but can see the EU is better off without us. 

 

Can comrade Corbyn deliver this? Does he even want to? 

[Rayvin 5176]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

Think I agree actually. We're jst a few months into negotiations and it's going spectacularly tits up. No way can Brexit go ahead how the loony Tory right wingers want it to, business just won't allow it and in a year's time even the average Mackem will see what a mistake it is.

 

I think it's fairly obvious what we need. We need to stay in the SM as a Norway type associate member. We need to keep in the CU indefinitely. We need to negotiate some sensible compromise on FOM, which can probably be done in the current framework. We need to keep paying the EU for access as well as for the various organisational arrangements. We won't be directly under ECJ but we will be de facto indirectly. It's not a big deal, we have full sovereignty over all important aspects already. 

 

This arrangement would be supported by most but the most rabid brexiters who can go fuck themselves tbh. It'll be acceptable to >50%. It'll solve the NI issue. It'll allow frictionless trade. It'll allow us to export services and protect the financial centre. We won't be able to strike our own deals but there is no advantage in that anyway. Soon the EU will have trade agreements with all the big players anyway.

 

The biggest advantage I see from this is it will allow us to disentangle ourselves from the political aspects of the EU but will protect our industry. The EU will then be able to forge ahead in closer union. I'd personally rather be part of this but can see the EU is better off without us. 

 

Can comrade Corbyn deliver this? Does he even want to? 

 

Agree on all of this, and my two cents on the questions posed are: No if he has to mobilise the movement for it himself, yes if it becomes a the popular direction and he's able to position himself at the forefront. Yes he will want this, IMO.

[Park Life 71]

41 minutes ago, Renton said:

Think I agree actually. We're jst a few months into negotiations and it's going spectacularly tits up. No way can Brexit go ahead how the loony Tory right wingers want it to, business just won't allow it and in a year's time even the average Mackem will see what a mistake it is.

 

I think it's fairly obvious what we need. We need to stay in the SM as a Norway type associate member. We need to keep in the CU indefinitely. We need to negotiate some sensible compromise on FOM, which can probably be done in the current framework. We need to keep paying the EU for access as well as for the various organisational arrangements. We won't be directly under ECJ but we will be de facto indirectly. It's not a big deal, we have full sovereignty over all important aspects already. 

 

This arrangement would be supported by most but the most rabid brexiters who can go fuck themselves tbh. It'll be acceptable to >50%. It'll solve the NI issue. It'll allow frictionless trade. It'll allow us to export services and protect the financial centre. We won't be able to strike our own deals but there is no advantage in that anyway. Soon the EU will have trade agreements with all the big players anyway.

 

The biggest advantage I see from this is it will allow us to disentangle ourselves from the political aspects of the EU but will protect our industry. The EU will then be able to forge ahead in closer union. I'd personally rather be part of this but can see the EU is better off without us. 

 

Can comrade Corbyn deliver this? Does he even want to? 

All that what you said is exactly what is going to happen. Over time the power of the referendum result will fade - they know it we know it. Corby has been designated to block any meaningful Brexit when Labour come to power.

[Alex 34822]

Be a double bonus should it pan out like that when all the fuckwits determined for a hard Brexit are left fuming.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

26 minutes ago, Park Life said:

All that what you said is exactly what is going to happen. Over time the power of the referendum result will fade - they know it we know it. Corby has been designated to block any meaningful Brexit when Labour come to power.

 

Labour need a chance to gain power first and the conservatives will do anything to avoid a GE before 2022.

[Alex 34822]

Speak of the devil

[Park Life 71]

23 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Labour need a chance to gain power first and the conservatives will do anything to avoid a GE before 2022.

 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/momentum-turning-in-favor-of-europe-by-george-soros-2017-06?barrier=accessreg

Edited September 26, 2017 by Park Life

[Christmas Tree 4685]

3 minutes ago, Park Life said:

 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/momentum-turning-in-favor-of-europe-by-george-soros-2017-06?barrier=accessreg

 

I can only see part of that as it looks like it's behind a pay wall. Is the thrust that EU needs to reform? If so it's what a lot of people have wanted for years but if anything the recent speech by the Juncker seems to be going the opposite way. More federalism, more Euro, more financial control from the centre.

 

Merkel is going to be tied up in internal negotiations for months which I guess is why May is trying to get things moving quickly before Boris takes over and pulls us out with no deal.

[Tom 14011]

Boris  

[Rayvin 5176]

9 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I can only see part of that as it looks like it's behind a pay wall. Is the thrust that EU needs to reform? If so it's what a lot of people have wanted for years but if anything the recent speech by the Juncker seems to be going the opposite way. More federalism, more Euro, more financial control from the centre.

 

Merkel is going to be tied up in internal negotiations for months which I guess is why May is trying to get things moving quickly before Boris takes over and pulls us out with no deal.

 

If the EU wants to survive, they need federalism, the Euro, and more financial control from the centre. That's the only way to avoid things like what happened in Greece. I have no doubt that the EU will end up as a superstate, and that it will be quite possibly the most powerful such entity on the planet. Quite possibly within our lifetime.

 

We're not going to be involved, in part, because we don't want to be part of those things. But we'll end up subservient to it in the same way that we are now to the US. Having said that, the EU will be much kinder with us than the US has ever been, I'm sure, because the EU for all its faults does genuinely seem to want to improve people's lives, rather than encouraging a race to the bottom.

[Christmas Tree 4685]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If the EU wants to survive, they need federalism, the Euro, and more financial control from the centre. That's the only way to avoid things like what happened in Greece. I have no doubt that the EU will end up as a superstate, and that it will be quite possibly the most powerful such entity on the planet. Quite possibly within our lifetime.

 

We're not going to be involved, in part, because we don't want to be part of those things. But we'll end up subservient to it in the same way that we are now to the US. Having said that, the EU will be much kinder with us than the US has ever been, I'm sure, because the EU for all its faults does genuinely seem to want to improve people's lives, rather than encouraging a race to the bottom.

 

The race to the bottom is already well under way and most people couldn't care less unless it effects their own job. 

[Rayvin 5176]

Um, I agree but I was saying it's been dictated by the US predominantly. They're the ones who generally oppose regulation and who haven't signed up to Geneva. People not caring unless it affects them is individualism  partially inspired by the Neoliberal Thatcherite/Reaganite doctrines.

 

All I'm saying is the EU will continue to head down the path that makes sense politically, which will be greater federalisation and a more unified political purpose, until they end up looking a lot like the USA. And hopefully, they'll be the powerful force for good that the US tried and failed to be.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Rayvin

[Renton 21276]

21 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I can only see part of that as it looks like it's behind a pay wall. Is the thrust that EU needs to reform? If so it's what a lot of people have wanted for years but if anything the recent speech by the Juncker seems to be going the opposite way. More federalism, more Euro, more financial control from the centre.

 

Merkel is going to be tied up in internal negotiations for months which I guess is why May is trying to get things moving quickly before Boris takes over and pulls us out with no deal.

 

The Tories are a minority government propped up by the DUP. Hard Brexit in the way you describe would be disastrous for Britain but utterly catastrophic for NI. The unionists must know this as much as the republicans. How is your lovable "Boris" going to square this circle without the support of his flat earth friends? You're looking at a civil war situation.