Europe --- In or Out

[Renton 21592]

Wow. A relative drop of £1.5 TRILLION compared with the French.

 

Look at this dipshit denialist missing the point.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Renton

[Renton 21592]

Latest polls show that nearly twice as many people now think leaving the EU was a mistake compared with thinking it was the correct thing to do. I think this gap is only going to widen, not a useful weapon for the tories any more.

 

[Rayvin 5217]

I still wonder if there might be enough of a sea change between now and the election for Labour to soften on the EU.

[Renton 21592]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I still wonder if there might be enough of a sea change between now and the election for Labour to soften on the EU.

 

I don't think there is any prospect of us joing the SM/CU unfortunately now in my lifetime. We've well and truly burbt our bridges. Why would the EU want us? They still get free access to our market for goods as we don't and never will check their imports. Any shift in supply chains benefits them, not us. They don't really need our services. FoM isn't an issue for them, they still have free access to the rest of Europe. They don't trust us in negotiations following the NI protocol debacle. Honestly, I think the EU would not only require a super majority in a referendum, they would also want cross party support, Never going to happen is it? Just have to make the best of what we've got now. Brexit was a bigger disaster than even I had ever envisaged. 

[Rayvin 5217]

I dunno about that, I think it would be a huge success story for the European project if a contrite UK returned to the fold. Also they do need to develop and grow their own strength in the face of a world increasingly dominated by bigger nations.

 

I can see us returning, at least to the single market. We can blame much of this insanity on the Tories after all. The EU won't be blind to that.

[Toonpack 9390]

3 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I don't think there is any prospect of us joing the SM/CU unfortunately now in my lifetime. We've well and truly burbt our bridges. Why would the EU want us? They still get free access to our market for goods as we don't and never will check their imports. Any shift in supply chains benefits them, not us. They don't really need our services. FoM isn't an issue for them, they still have free access to the rest of Europe. They don't trust us in negotiations following the NI protocol debacle. Honestly, I think the EU would not only require a super majority in a referendum, they would also want cross party support, Never going to happen is it? Just have to make the best of what we've got now. Brexit was a bigger disaster than even I had ever envisaged. 

 

Disagree, think it's inevitable (and sooner the better) if you'd said the full blown EU I'd have agreed, but SM/CU comparatively easily done and wouldn't have any resistance from EU

[Dr Gloom 21912]

It’s a question of when rather than if we rejoin the SM/CU.
 

The economic illiterates have lost the argument and it’s finally sinking in with the public. There’s a growing acceptance that we were conned. 
 

The evidence is there for all to see. This happened six years ago. The Brexiteers -  those who sold it - were lying and they won’t be able to blame Brexit’s economic impact on Ukraine and Covid forever. 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

I don’t think we will rejoin the EU though. Don’t think the EU would have us for starters and I don’t think the British public would accept joining the single currency, which I imagine would be non-negotiable if we begged for forgiveness. 

 

We will be forced to accept the Norway/subjugation model. We will have no option other than be rule takers. But that’s a price worth paying. Voters won’t tolerate falling living standards indefinitely. Regaining unrestricted access to our biggest market is the way we get the economy growing again. 
 

The finally irony is we had the best deal of any member state before we voted leave. Has any democracy ever voted to impose economic sanctions on itself before?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Monkeys Fist 42387]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

The finally irony is we had the best deal of any member state before we voted leave. Has any democracy ever voted to impose economic sanctions on itself before?

Out of the whole shitshow, this is the bit that rankles the most. 
 

Barely mentioned by the pitiful “Stay” campaign irc. 

[Renton 21592]

37 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It’s a question of when rather than if we rejoin the SM/CU.
 

The economic illiterates have lost the argument and it’s finally sinking in with the public. There’s a growing acceptance that we were conned. 
 

The evidence is there for all to see. This happened six years ago. The Brexiteers -  those who sold it - were lying and they won’t be able to blame Brexit’s economic impact on Ukraine and Covid forever. 

 

I agree it is probably when not if but imo it's a long, long way away. This is informed by actually listening to European politicians rather than debating amonst ourselves seemingly blithely unaware there is a pretty crucial third party involved in this. It's like a bloke arguing with himself whether he should marry a woman he hasn't actually asked yet. It was like that throughout the Brexit debate too, but now we have the decree absolute, it's even more relevant. That's why I made the point the EU would want a super majority referendum result (which is difficult, but maybe possible) AND cross-party consensus (which I believe is impossible) whilst we retain this FPTP bollocks Starmewr is too scared to challenge. They don't want to risk this shit again, who can blame them. They have very little to gain.. The UK is now and for the foreseeable, a destabilising force. 

 

The EFTA route is also essentially closed. We need to develop a different relationship. As always, no cherry picking. If we want SM access, we also have to concede* FoM, Not happening any time soon.

 

* I appreciate most on here don't regard it as a copncession, quite the opposite. 

[Renton 21592]

 

 

[Renton 21592]

Bear in mind on the above graph we should be relatively isolated from the war in Ukraine and the energy supply issues. Especially as we are predominantly a service economy, not a manufacturing economy like Germany.

 

As an island should have fared better with covid too 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Renton

[Craig 6682]

Shit like this needs ramming down the throats of the ERG. They've spectacularly got everything wrong that they've ever stood for. I feel Brexit is the modern day 'Nero fiddled while Rome burned'. This will take decades to resolve. I struggle to understand what good they feel they've achieved.

[Gemmill 44811]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

 

 

The Anti Growth Coalition is putting in a shift. 

[Gemmill 44811]

 

I've only seen that Tory MP on telly twice and she is really fucking shit. 

[Alex 35064]

11 hours ago, Craig said:

Shit like this needs ramming down the throats of the ERG. They've spectacularly got everything wrong that they've ever stood for. I feel Brexit is the modern day 'Nero fiddled while Rome burned'. This will take decades to resolve. I struggle to understand what good they feel they've achieved.

They’ll have gotten significantly richer due to receiving money from their Russian backers 👍🏻

[NJS 4378]

The reason we can't have an adult conversation about it is because none of the politicians or media involved are adults - and that includes Starmer and his focus groups of cunts. 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

I've only seen that Tory MP on telly twice and she is really fucking shit. 

QT is a good barometer. Depends on where they’re filming to an extent but I’m struggling to remember a time post-referendum when this sort of comment attracted an applause like that. The tide is turning 

[Gemmill 44811]

23 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

QT is a good barometer. Depends on where they’re filming to an extent but I’m struggling to remember a time post-referendum when this sort of comment attracted an applause like that. The tide is turning 

Blackford later commented that there was a compromise position in all of this, and that was staying in the CU. Another big round of applause. 

 

They had this big fat lass from the Spectator who was just there to cheer lead for the Tories. Sniping at Blackford and Ashworth when they were trying to talk. She was probably late 20s and she fucking knew it ALL. 

[ewerk 30569]

Being in the CU and not in the SM is a bit pointless isn't it? We can't do trade deals but there will still be checks on our goods entering the SM.

[Toonpack 9390]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Being in the CU and not in the SM is a bit pointless isn't it? We can't do trade deals but there will still be checks on our goods entering the SM.

 

Yes, unless we conformed to EU standards (which we fucking should anyway!!)

[Renton 21592]

20 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

Yes, unless we conformed to EU standards (which we fucking should anyway!!)

 

But if you're not in the SM, it would still be necessary to check those standards physically at the border. Could be light touch on some items but not on things like agriculture. The only country that is in the CU but not the SM is Turkey, which really has the worst of all worlds. They are desperate for ascension to the EU. 

[Renton 21592]

28 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Blackford later commented that there was a compromise position in all of this, and that was staying in the CU. Another big round of applause. 

 

They had this big fat lass from the Spectator who was just there to cheer lead for the Tories. Sniping at Blackford and Ashworth when they were trying to talk. She was probably late 20s and she fucking knew it ALL. 

That obese American porker is on quite a bit. The Spectator, like the Telegraph, has just become a joke publication. I witnessed the clip above which as people say would have caused a gammon backlash a year ago, but couldn't stomach that bint so went to bed. 

[Toonpack 9390]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But if you're not in the SM, it would still be necessary to check those standards physically at the border. Could be light touch on some items but not on things like agriculture. The only country that is in the CU but not the SM is Turkey, which really has the worst of all worlds. They are desperate for ascension to the EU. 

 

Erm yes, that's what I said, I was agreeing with ewerk, being on one and not the other is pointless 

[Renton 21592]

Just now, Toonpack said:

 

Erm yes, that's what I said, I was agreeing with ewerk, being on one and not the other is pointless 

 

No, you suggested being in the CU would be okay if we conformed to EU standards. But we already do that, all exporting countries have to. So even if you conform to the standards, there are still physical checks and NTBs.  To avoid this you need to be fully in the SM/EEA which requires FoM and EHJ jurisdiction, which are red line we apparently can't accept. To summarise, I didn't hear what Blackford said but if he is pushing for the CU he is talking out his arse.