Europe --- In or Out

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

There is a growing majority in this country who know Brexit is a shitshow. We need to be able to vote for someone who will make and win this argument. The thought that Starmer will suddenly grow a sack when elected and take on the media and the gammons if he crawls to an electoral victory is a nonsense

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

14 minutes ago, Alex said:

I totally get where you’re coming from Trump made it worse not better was the point. The catastrophe isn’t necessarily a nadir. It’s a fucking shitshow though, I know that. Starter’s been dealt a severely limited hand but it’s difficult to argue with Renton’s assertion he’s a coward. 

It's also continued to get worse with Biden is my point.

Electing someone who hasn't got the ability to actually make things better is pointless

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

Unless we make them earn our votes they'll continue to half arse it and even when we win we still lose. Tory lite is still Tory. We deserve better

[Gemmill 44931]

@RentonI can't understand your position here. Last week you were saying he can't reopen the debate on Brexit because it'll cost him the next election. This week you're absolutely furious that he hasn't cost himself the next election by saying we'll reverse significant chunks of Brexit. 

 

 

 

[Renton 21632]

15 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

@RentonI can't understand your position here. Last week you were saying he can't reopen the debate on Brexit because it'll cost him the next election. This week you're absolutely furious that he hasn't cost himself the next election by saying we'll reverse significant chunks of Brexit. 

 

 

 

 

It's because he's ruled out the SM and CU in their entirety. Why not just keep quiet? I know he is pre-empting the inevitable red tops and Mail bashing him, but at the same time I, and many others, will struggle to vote for him. Also his plan is bollocks, it's a non starter. Either he is stupid or is a liar. I think a bit of measured honesty and bravery are in order. He just doesn't seem to have any answers. PR is another thing he won't entertain which I think is even more important. 

[Dr Gloom 21937]

it's a question of needs must. win power first, then sort it out. don't fight the election on brexit again. that would be playing into johnson's hands and would give him a sniff of a chance. 

 

i've said it before but this country needs a good slice of shit before it can come to terms with the brexit reality. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21937]

the other thing to remember is covid and ukraine camer along at the worst possible time for remainers. not only is it making the pain even worse than it would have been, but it gives johnson cover to regnite the brexit argument. the dust needs to settle before voters begin to realise how big a fuck up the 52% made. starmer isn't handling it brilliantly but i'm not sure he has much choice if he wants to win the next election - it can't be fought on brexit again. 

[Alex 35095]

57 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Unless we make them earn our votes they'll continue to half arse it and even when we win we still lose. Tory lite is still Tory. We deserve better

I think voter apathy has put us where we are. In part at least. Technically it’s not apathy in yours and similar cases but it amounts to the same thing if you don’t vote in terms of who it benefits. Following on from your earlier point about the growing number of people recognising the problems with Brexit, is that enough to win an election on that ticket? I think the only way this gets properly fixed is PR, meaning progressive parties probably always form an alliance in power. That actually requires Labour to win without a majority. If they don’t need the Lib Dems they’ll kick the can along the road again thinking they can easily win elections with fptp 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Alex

[Renton 21632]

We as a country are now in the ridiculous position that we can't admit Brexit is a disaster for us. If you don't recognise the problem, you can't fix it. So apparently we are all going to have to suffer before seeking solutions? 

 

I'm not convinced. The Leave campaign promised we would stay in the SM, we'd be like Norway. Staying in the SM is in no way a breach of Brexit. Brexit is increasingly seen as a bad thing by most people, including a lot of tories, like farmers (story below). Why are we appeasing the ERG to this extent? A very strong argument can be made to joining the SM if Starmer was not such a coward. I think the tories are stuffed anyway with the cost of living crisis which is going to be very bad.  

[Gemmill 44931]

Rocking up tonight and saying "Hey guys! I've got an idea.... Let's rejoin the single market!" is political suicide.

 

That's not bravery, it's insanity. And it's a MASSIVE pressure release valve for the Tories. 

 

Everything you watched and read for the last fortnight would be about Labour wanting to reverse Brexit. It would be genuinely fucking idiotic. 

[Renton 21632]

8 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Rocking up tonight and saying "Hey guys! I've got an idea.... Let's rejoin the single market!" is political suicide.

 

That's not bravery, it's insanity. And it's a MASSIVE pressure release valve for the Tories. 

 

Everything you watched and read for the last fortnight would be about Labour wanting to reverse Brexit. It would be genuinely fucking idiotic. 

 

Why though? Every poll I've seen says people recognise the damage Brexit is doing, by quite a large majority. Support for rejoining is supposed to be 80% in the under 34s I think I read. Liberal Dems, by far the most pro-EU party have won land slide victories in solid tory seats. Why can't they fight and win the argument? Is Brexit really a vote winner?

 

But lets think about the negatives of this policy. Will it actually appease the gammons? No, I don't think it will, the Mail will not change their Labour narrative. Will it alienate younger working voters? Yes, it will. Will it alienate the Scottish? Yes, it will definitely aid the call for independence, and with it 60 seats that once were mainly Labour. Does it do anthing for NI? No, the DUP won't take their seats in governement with this (but aye, fuck them anyway I guess). 

 

So on reflection, I don't think Starmer needed to do this and think it is a strategic mistake. 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Renton

[Renton 21632]

Bloackfor just now, is anybody going to argue he's wrong?

 

Quote

Keir Starmer has strengthened the case for independence by embracing the Tories’ hard Brexit. It is now beyond doubt that independence is Scotland’s only way back to Europe and the only path to economic prosperity.

Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit but under Westminster control it has been imposed against our will - costing the Scottish economy billions of pounds, inflicting long-term damage to economic growth, trade, jobs and the NHS - and making the Tory cost of living crisis much worse. It is frankly astonishing that Keir Starmer can look at all the catastrophic damage Brexit is causing and decide to become a Brexit supporter.

The Labour Party are now indistinguishable from the Tories on Brexit. By running scared of the Tories and mutating into a pale imitation of Boris Johnson, Starmer is offering no real change at all.

With this hard Brexit U-turn Keir Starmer has perfectly encapsulated why Scotland needs to escape from Westminster control. Regaining Scotland’s place in Europe will be at the heart of the independence referendum.

 

[Holden McGroin 6597]

You're forgetting half the country is clueless and will vote off the back of soundbites like "he gets stuff done"

 

[Renton 21632]

Just now, Holden McGroin said:

You're forgetting half the country is clueless and will vote off the back of soundbites like "he gets stuff done"

 

 

Naah, people vote with their pocket in the main, which are going to be very empty. This is the perfect time for Starmer to bebrave but he's bottling it. 

[Holden McGroin 6597]

Yeah but they have to be told what party to vote for and sadly that's dictated by the tabloids. I think the Tories can easily win the next GE with angles like "Its a global problem". That and Boris going might swing it.

[Gemmill 44931]

 

Lib Dems not daft enough to say they want back in the SM/CU either. 

 

You can't win this argument for all the same reasons that Renton agreed with last week but now is diametrically opposed to.

 

[Holden McGroin 6597]

Aye, I think it would party suicide to get involved but I hope he is bullshitting his way in. Who is up for another national vote? 😬

Edited July 4, 2022 by Holden McGroin

[Tom 14011]

Traitors. That's who. 

 

 

[Renton 21632]

7 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Lib Dems not daft enough to say they want back in the SM/CU either. 

 

You can't win this argument for all the same reasons that Renton agreed with last week but now is diametrically opposed to.

 

 

But I'm saying why rule it out completely? Because I think in 7 years time things might well be different. Demographics will shift in favour of the young. Tangible problems with Brexit will persist, like queues at airports. Economy will be demonstrably down the shitter compared with EU (assuming Ukaraine war ends some time). Most people will want rejoin but we won't be able to because both parties are now Brexit parties. How does this make sense? Btw, nothing from the LDs there saying they wouldn't rejoin SM? ANd why not, it's what Farage and Hannon promised. 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Renton

[Gemmill 44931]

He can u-turn. 7 years down the line it will be a lot easier to win the argument that our economy is in the shitter SOLELY because of Brexit. You can't do that at the minute. COVID and Ukraine have completely blurred the lines. 

 

If he hadn't set his stall out saying no to SM/CU, the very first question from the press pack would have been "so do you want us to rejoin the SM/CU?" and he would have had to waffle. And everyone would have said Labour STILL doesn't know what it wants to do on Brexit! And the right wing press would have framed it however was most advantageous to Johnson and the Tories. 

 

I don't know why you think this is an irreversible position. 

[Renton 21632]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

He can u-turn. 7 years down the line it will be a lot easier to win the argument that our economy is in the shitter SOLELY because of Brexit. You can't do that at the minute. COVID and Ukraine have completely blurred the lines. 

 

If he hadn't set his stall out saying no to SM/CU, the very first question from the press pack would have been "so do you want us to rejoin the SM/CU?" and he would have had to waffle. And everyone would have said Labour STILL doesn't know what it wants to do on Brexit! And the right wing press would have framed it however was most advantageous to Johnson and the Tories. 

 

I don't know why you think this is an irreversible position. 

 

It's clearly a manifesto commitment and is irreversible for at least another parliament. What are your opinions on what this will do for Scotland btw? Seeing Labour complicit in breaking two unions is canny stomach churning tbh. All because they are scared of Murdoch.  

[Craig 6682]

45 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Rocking up tonight and saying "Hey guys! I've got an idea.... Let's rejoin the single market!" is political suicide.

 

That's not bravery, it's insanity. And it's a MASSIVE pressure release valve for the Tories. 

 

Everything you watched and read for the last fortnight would be about Labour wanting to reverse Brexit. It would be genuinely fucking idiotic. 

Yeah I have to agree with this. And not saying anything at all would be shot down as being non-committal or indecisive. Whilst I don't agree with the long term rhetoric, I can understand why he's said it at this point in time. And anyone who even thinks twice of not voting for Starmer because of it needs to give their heads a shake IMHO.

[Renton 21632]

Look at this man. Can someone explain to me why supporting an obviously failing Brexit is a vote winner? Is it all just fear of the written media? Who the fuck even reads a paper nowadays anyway? And yeah, I know I probably come across as contrary now, but I'm just sick of the bull shit and lies. 

 

 

 

[Holden McGroin 6597]

My mother reads newspapers and for the first time in family history she voted for them in the last GE. I didn't speak to her for weeks and my dad would have turned in his grave. 

 

That's what we are up against im afraid.

[Tom 14011]

I had to knock on the doors of former coal miners and ask them if they were voting & who for. A lot of them laughed at the idea of voting Labour. 
 

They got Richard Holden....