Europe --- In or Out

[Dr Gloom 21915]

At least our airports are well-staffed. This was the two hour queue to get into city airport this morning 

[Renton 21614]

Starmer to make a speech today confriming Labour will not join the SM or bring back FoM, effectively condemning us to decades of low growth and decline. Also I think personally this is the last straw for Scotland, I wish them well and might move there myself when the kids finish school. 

 

Why do we have to put up with this bullshit? I only vote to stop the party I hate most, I don't vote for anything positive anymore. It's a shit situation. I'll be honest now and actually hope Starmer gets fined and someone else gets a go at the wheel. I understand he doesn't want to stir up the Brexit shitfest but to actively side with the brexiters, who are now in a minority, is a fucking cunt's trick. Fuck you Starmer. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Renton

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

Just now, Renton said:

Starmer to make a speech today confriming Labour will not join the SM or bring back FoM, effectively condemning us to decades of low growth and decline. Also I think personally this is the last straw for Scotland, I wish them well and might move there myself when the kids finish school. 

 

Why do we have to put up with this bullshit? I only vote to stop the party I hate most, I don't vote for anything positive anymore. It's a shit situation. I'll be honest now and actually hope Starmer gets fined and someone else gets a go at the wheel. I understand he doesn't want to stir up the Brexit shitfest but to actively side with the brexiters, who are now in a monority, is a fucking cunt's trick. Fuck you Starmer. 

These reports this morning have absolutely sickened me. He's doing his very best to stop me voting for him

[Renton 21614]

2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

These reports this morning have absolutely sickened me. He's doing his very best to stop me voting for him

 

I'll vote for him, like I did for Corbyn, because I think a conservative victory would be catastrophic. But I have no enthusiasm for him at all now. 

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I'll vote for him, like I did for Corbyn, because I think a conservative victory would be catastrophic. But I have no enthusiasm for him at all now. 

Maybe we need a catastrophe to actually get some sensible policy for the future. As you say this shit will condemn us to failure

[Toonpack 9399]

16 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

These reports this morning have absolutely sickened me. He's doing his very best to stop me voting for him

 

He's playing a long game, if he comes out and says we'll rejoin SM and get FoM back it's a godsend to the Tories, they can make the next election (if we have one) all about "ooh look Labour want to take Brexit away and bow to Johnny foreigner again".

 

If he keeps on the with "we have to make Brexit work" rhetoric it removes that possibility, anyone who's not an idiot knows we need to rejoin those things, but there's way too many idiots in this country to counteract just now.

 

If in power, coming to the conclusion, the only way to make Brexit work is by having the single market and freedom of movement back is an easier/better sell.

 

I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Toonpack

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

He's playing a long game, if he comes out and says we'll rejoin SM and get FoM back it's a godsend to the Tories, they can make the next election (if we have one) all about "ooh look Labour want to take Brexit away" and bow to Johnny foreigner again.

 

If he keeps on the with "we have to make Brexit work" rhetoric it removes that possibility, anyone who's not an idiot knows we need to rejoin those things, but there's way to many idiots in this country to counteract just now.

 

If in power, coming to the conclusion, the only way to make Brexit work is by having the single market and freedom of movement back is an easier/better sell.

 

I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

You've got more faith in him than I have

[Toonpack 9399]

3 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

You've got more faith in him than I have

 

As I said, anyone but an idiot knows we need to do these things and whatever his faults, he's not an idiot.

[Renton 21614]

2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

He's playing a long game, if he comes out and says we'll rejoin SM and get FoM back it's a godsend to the Tories, they can make the next election (if we have one) all about "ooh look Labour want to take Brexit away" and bow to Johnny foreigner again.

 

If he keeps on the with "we have to make Brexit work" rhetoric it removes that possibility, anyone who's not an idiot knows we need to rejoin those things, but there's way to many idiots in this country to counteract just now.

 

If in power, coming to the conclusion, the only way to make Brexit work is by having the single market and freedom of movement back is an easier/better sell.

 

I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

 

He's ruled out rejoining for at least the period that the manifesto covers though - 5 years minimum. He didn't have to do this and it is going to turn a lot of voters against him, whilst I supect gaining none. 

One thing we need to remember is that we talk about Brexit in a bubble in this country, seemingly oblivious to what the EU of EFTA want. I personally don't think they will let us rejoin the SM for at least a decade anyway. So "making Brexit work" is fair enough, but I draw the line at categorically blocking even trying to rejoin the SM or talking about it. He's a coward. 

[Alex 35077]

I don’t get it. I get being cagey before the election because it’s a hot potato but to completely rule it out? I think he’s viewed as a ‘centrist’. Whether he actually is or not doesn’t matter but that’s his base and they’re overwhelmingly pro-European. I can honestly see his support dissipating if he goes ahead with this. Is this just to attract the fucking morons who won’t accept it’s been a huge mistake? 

[Alex 35077]

10 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Maybe we need a catastrophe to actually get some sensible policy for the future. As you say this shit will condemn us to failure

That was an argument for voting for Trump. I think people often make assumptions that things can’t get worse when they can, in fact, almost always get a lot worse. 

[Renton 21614]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

That was an argument for voting for Trump. I think people often make assumptions that things can’t get worse when they can, in fact, almost always get a lot worse. 

 

Yep. I'd rather my kids don't have to live with the consequences of a catastrophe thanks. I just hope Labour can find a more honest progressive leader in time. 

[Alex 35077]

Well it’s not just that. There’s absolutely no guarantee it even makes things better long term. Another 5 years of the economy tanking, workers’ and human rights being eroded etc., the right wing press blaming everyone and everything but the real culprits, public apathy at the descent into fascism. How does that happening equate to that being undone then subsequently things getting back to improving? Even if it did it’s writing off generations, if not lifetimes 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Alex

[Toonpack 9399]

33 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

He's ruled out rejoining for at least the period that the manifesto covers though - 5 years minimum. He didn't have to do this and it is going to turn a lot of voters against him, whilst I supect gaining none. 

One thing we need to remember is that we talk about Brexit in a bubble in this country, seemingly oblivious to what the EU of EFTA want. I personally don't think they will let us rejoin the SM for at least a decade anyway. So "making Brexit work" is fair enough, but I draw the line at categorically blocking even trying to rejoin the SM or talking about it. He's a coward. 

 

He's being politically expedient IMO, time will tell.

 

It's a clusterfuck either way.

[Renton 21614]

Reading through his five proposed actions he mainly wants to the EU to accept regulatory equivalence with the UK. No way will this fly with the EU, they will insist we are subject to ECJ jurisdiction like every other country, or we will have to keep border inspection posts imo. It's yet again cherry picking and its fucking pathetic. You'd think we would have learned by now we actually don't have the upper hand here. 

[Renton 21614]

Meanwhile......

 

 

[Toonpack 9399]

9 minutes ago, Renton said:

Reading through his five proposed actions he mainly wants to the EU to accept regulatory equivalence with the UK. No way will this fly with the EU, they will insist we are subject to ECJ jurisdiction like every other country, or we will have to keep border inspection posts imo. It's yet again cherry picking and its fucking pathetic. You'd think we would have learned by now we actually don't have the upper hand here. 

 

He's not in power, whatever he says is utterly meaningless, he's making sure he doesn't give the cunts ammunition.

 

He has to appeal to the cuntish (I was going to say fringe) segment of society if he's to get anywhere near power.

 

If he's in power he can ask "can we have regulatory equivalence" and EU will say "sure, on our regulations" and then he can act, hopefully in the non-idiot way.

 

[Toonpack 9399]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

Meanwhile......

 

 

 

We know all this, but there's a significant number of arseholes who don't/won't accept it and sadly they hold the ability to swing the balance of power.

[ewerk 30598]

Labour need a position on this. Standing up for the right position loses votes and allows the Tories to move the debate to a battleground they're very comfortable on and have won on in the past. This isn't a policy that will please anyone but is designed to ensure that the focus of the next election is on other issues.

 

We can only hope that when in power that they push it a bit further but right now Brexit is the third rail of UK politics.

[Renton 21614]

8 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

He's not in power, whatever he says is utterly meaningless, he's making sure he doesn't give the cunts ammunition.

 

He has to appeal to the cuntish (I was going to say fringe) segment of society if he's to get anywhere near power.

 

If he's in power he can ask "can we have regulatory equivalence" and EU will say "sure, on our regulations" and then he can act, hopefully in the non-idiot way.

 

 

The EU aren't going to entertain his cherry picking. Your either in the SM, or you're not. If you are in, you pay a fee, you accept FoM, and you are subject to the ECJ. You become a rule taker. There is no middle ground, apart from NI maybe. ANd the unionists won't agree to his keeping the NI protocol anyway. Starmer will know this. He is lying to us. I'm not okay with this. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Renton

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

That was an argument for voting for Trump. I think people often make assumptions that things can’t get worse when they can, in fact, almost always get a lot worse. 

US voted for Biden. He has done nothing to reverse anything done by Trump. Still got kids in cages at the border. Did nothing to codify Roe-Wade to prevent it being abolished. Done nothing to hold Trump to account. And Trump or De Santis going to get backnin next time anyway. 

If there is no proper alternative voting makes no difference

 

 

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

So let me be very clear: with Labour, Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union.

 

Cowardly cunt

 

[Toonpack 9399]

27 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

The EU aren't going to entertain his cherry picking. Your either in the SM, or you're not. If you are in, you pay a fee, you accept FoM, and you are subject to the ECJ. You become a rule taker. There is no middle ground, apart from NI maybe. ANd the unionists won't agree to his keeping the NI protocol anyway. Starmer will know this. He is lying to us. I'm not okay with this. 

 

Again, we know all this, BUT he's got to get some support from the red-wall brexity cunts or everything else is academic.

 

He needs to be in power before he can even say good morning to the EU.

[Alex 35077]

2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

US voted for Biden. He has done nothing to reverse anything done by Trump. Still got kids in cages at the border. Did nothing to codify Roe-Wade to prevent it being abolished. Done nothing to hold Trump to account. And Trump or De Santis going to get backnin next time anyway. 

If there is no proper alternative voting makes no difference

 

 

I totally get where you’re coming from Trump made it worse not better was the point. The catastrophe isn’t necessarily a nadir. It’s a fucking shitshow though, I know that. Starter’s been dealt a severely limited hand but it’s difficult to argue with Renton’s assertion he’s a coward. 

[Toonpack 9399]