Europe --- In or Out

[Gemmill 44564]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/13/how-johnson-pledged-help-for-my-business-to-win-my-love

 

This? Or is it elsewhere too? 

[ewerk 30409]

1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:

Some Sunday tabloid editor has suddenly decided to resurrect some part of the Jennifer Accuri story that his publication has plainly been sitting on for years just to hammer another nail into Johnson’s coffin. Do they want him gone by Christmas?… is Rishi finally ready?…. 

It was the producer of the original documentary on Acuri who has released the diary extracts. They don’t really add anything to the original story but are a bit more headline grabbing in the current climate. It’s fair to say The Observer have never been fans of Johnson. I don’t expect the news to move the dial much.

[PaddockLad 17168]

32 minutes ago, ewerk said:

It was the producer of the original documentary on Acuri who has released the diary extracts. They don’t really add anything to the original story but are a bit more headline grabbing in the current climate. It’s fair to say The Observer have never been fans of Johnson. I don’t expect the news to move the dial much.

 

Agreed, nothing really new.. his colleagues do appear to want Johnson out though...

[The Mighty Hog 518]

On 13/11/2021 at 08:44, Alex said:

Despite everything the worst thing about that is his ‘tache 

 

He's managed to look like both Max and Paddy at the same time.

[Sonatine 11329]

 

 

[RobinRobin 11193]

And we're not having that Beethoven chappie here, in retaliation.

[Isegrim 9741]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2298455-uk-visa-scheme-for-prize-winning-scientists-receives-no-applications/
 

Who wants to listen to so called experts anyway.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

The French teaching us a brexit lesson costs 31 lives. 

[Rayvin 5189]

Why is it the French and not both sides? I don't really understand why it's happened other than the fact that they had a crappy boat. Is the contention that the French are now not trying so hard in terms of controlling for immigrants attempting to cross the channel, and therefore could have prevented this by dealing with the general issue more robustly?

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Why would it be our side? What are supposed to do? Police their country? 

[ewerk 30409]

Yesterday was a wet dream for the right. They get to express sympathies while saying to other would-be asylum seekers 'look what will hopefully happen to you'.

[Renton 21451]

It is our fault for destabilising countries during Iraq 2, Afghanistan, and the Arab spring. French less.culpable here but have a particular responsibility for Libya. If we want to stop this, we have to process asylum claims abroad. It's our choice not to. Also Brexit has taken us out of the Dublin convention which worsens things. So yes, ultimately it is on us. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Renton

[Rayvin 5189]

Tbh I'm not particularly convinced, if we limit this to just a migration issue, that it's anyone's fault other than the people who are organising for these shipments of people to happen. If we move into geopolitics then fair enough, plenty of blame to go around - but beyond that point this really comes down to the people organising it.

 

France have no more a responsibility to police who enters our country than we do to police who leaves there's. It's just a very difficult problem.

[Renton 21451]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Tbh I'm not particularly convinced, if we limit this to just a migration issue, that it's anyone's fault other than the people who are organising for these shipments of people to happen. If we move into geopolitics then fair enough, plenty of blame to go around - but beyond that point this really comes down to the people organising it.

 

France have no more a responsibility to police who enters our country than we do to police who leaves there's. It's just a very difficult problem.

 

Dunno, I tend to think the "people smugglers" are a handy scape goat and bogeyman. Just people capitalising on a tragic situation, but then that's capitalism for you. If they somehow didn't exist, the problem is still there, it will just mutate into more even smaller boats. Still, they serve their purpose which is exactly to distract from the geopolitics. 

[Rayvin 5189]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Dunno, I tend to think the "people smugglers" are a handy scape goat and bogeyman. Just people capitalising on a tragic situation, but then that's capitalism for you. If they somehow didn't exist, the problem is still there, it will just mutate into more even smaller boats. Still, they serve their purpose which is exactly to distract from the geopolitics. 

 

In this instance I didn't so much mean they're at fault for existing, I meant that they're at fault for trying to traverse the channel in what sounds like a jumbo sized child's inflatable raft.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

Yesterday was a wet dream for the right. They get to express sympathies while saying to other would-be asylum seekers 'look what will hopefully happen to you'.

I think all sides would want a deterrent to not cross the channel in a rubber dingy in winter. Seeking asylum from...France?

[ewerk 30409]

8 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

I think all sides would want a deterrent to not cross the channel in a rubber dingy in winter. Seeking asylum from...France?

Spring, summer, autumn or winter the right are up in arms about this.

We took in under 11,000 asylum seekers last year. What's the problem with that?

[spongebob toonpants 3961]

Mass migration hasn't even started yet, when global warming starts leaving vast swathes of drought and desert things will get really spicy.

 

I'm for abolishing all borders anyway. Let anyone live anywhere they want. It's a fucking outrage to think you should be able to stop humans living where they want

[Rayvin 5189]

9 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Mass migration hasn't even started yet, when global warming starts leaving vast swathes of drought and desert things will get really spicy.

 

I'm for abolishing all borders anyway. Let anyone live anywhere they want. It's a fucking outrage to think you should be able to stop humans living where they want

 

Is it possible to have functioning economic systems under such rules though? How would we sustain ourselves if half the world's population moved to the UK? These are genuine questions rather than challenges.

[Renton 21451]

I'm a believer in a Rodenberryesque future utopia, or at least I was, but it is probably even further away than Rodenberry predicted. You start of by creating blocks with FoM, which the EU pioneered. However, at this stage in our evolution we are simply too tribalistic and the reverse is actually happening, the resurgence of nationalism.

 

The idea of the EU is/was to create an economic zone of relatively homogenous prosperity which gradually expands. As poorer countries in Eastern Europe are absorbed, their standard of living will improve and so they become part of the collective. Unfortunately this is a very slow process, causes resentment from entitled fuckers in the extant union, and underestimates the ethnic and cultural heterogeneity for it to work. There's a reason most science fiction is dystopian, its because the authors of it have correctly understood human nature. In short, we're fucked in the medium term at least. I genuinely think I may have already lived through the best times the World has had to off in this millennium. 

[Rayvin 5189]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

I'm a believer in a Rodenberryesque future utopia, or at least I was, but it is probably even further away than Rodenberry predicted. You start of by creating blocks with FoM, which the EU pioneered. However, at this stage in our evolution we are simply too tribalistic and the reverse is actually happening, the resurgence of nationalism.

 

The idea of the EU is/was to create an economic zone of relatively homogenous prosperity which gradually expands. As poorer countries in Eastern Europe are absorbed, their standard of living will improve and so they become part of the collective. Unfortunately this is a very slow process, causes resentment from entitled fuckers in the extant union, and underestimates the ethnic and cultural heterogeneity for it to work. There's a reason most science fiction is dystopian, its because the authors of it have correctly understood human nature. In short, we're fucked in the medium term at least. I genuinely think I may have already lived through the best times the World has had to off in this millennium. 

 

This is broadly why I think blocs like the EU are so important too, but it is a utopian vision.

 

The sad thing about where we are IMO is that there are plenty of us who would be ready to step into this vision - we're just held back by people who are too fearful to embrace it. And realistically, as you say, we'll likely lose hundreds of years of time to these people.

[spongebob toonpants 3961]

17 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

This is broadly why I think blocs like the EU are so important too, but it is a utopian vision.

 

The sad thing about where we are IMO is that there are plenty of us who would be ready to step into this vision - we're just held back by people who are too fearful to embrace it. And realistically, as you say, we'll likely lose hundreds of years of time to these people.

The reason people are too fearful is because they are kept ignorant and frightened by the ruler class

 

 

[ewerk 30409]

Careful lads, there’ll be be overthrowing of the capitalist system on my watch.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

Spring, summer, autumn or winter the right are up in arms about this.

We took in under 11,000 asylum seekers last year. What's the problem with that?

I don't mind taking in asylum seekers. I welcome them. I have a problem that they're suddenly attempting these crossings in record numbers. Not because there's suddenly more of them, but because suddenly after brexit the efforts to stop them have reduced.

[Rayvin 5189]

2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

I don't mind taking in asylum seekers. I welcome them. I have a problem that they're suddenly attempting these crossings in record numbers. Not because there's suddenly more of them, but because suddenly after brexit the efforts to stop them have reduced.

 

It's a fair comment but these are the consequences of shit diplomacy. You can't expect to be a total cunt to your neighbours and have them continue doing you favours.