Europe --- In or Out

[Alex 35097]

You generalised about the media when you rendered them blameless but that’s ok. And you've given one example to back that up, using a station where the likes of Farage and Hopkins got equal billing.  

[Dr Gloom 21954]

i gave two examples - the FT is also "MSM" and therefore lumped in the same category as LBC. it's nonsense. 

of course we have lots of shitty media companies that helped shape views and confirm bias. i didn't suggest otherwise. but the point is the information was out there and many quality publications reported it. we all knew about the risks, didn't we? we have been debating it every day on here for five years. why didn't the rest of the country know? people didn't want to hear. they didn't want to know and now they have got what they deserve. it's time for the brexiteers to own this shitstorm

forgive me if i'm being overly defensive but i find the situation we're in terribly bleak and depressing. i also know that my colleagues played little part in influencing people to vote to leave. i sleep well at night in that regard. though plenty of other stuff is keeping me awake right now. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

fwiw, i had a lot of sympathy for brexit voters after the referendum. they were obviously sold a lie by politicians and i accept the beeb didn't help by giving as platform to the likes of farage in the name of balance.

but they've had two elections since then to figure it out. it's not like a lot of this stuff hasn't been reported. it was all we used to talk about before the coronavirus thread. it has certainly sustained more chat on here than the football board in recent years. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Alex 35097]

Unless we’ve got our wires crossed I think we’re (except the person working in the industry - funnily enough) acknowledging the role the majority of the “MSM” played in what happened as opposed to exonerating everyone led down the garden path. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

Unless we’ve got our wires crossed I think we’re (except the person working in the industry - funnily enough) acknowledging the role the majority of the “MSM” played in what happened as opposed to exonerating everyone led down the garden path. 

of course i acknowledge that like the mail and the sun did a lot of the heavy lifting. even the beeb fanned the flames on occasion, in the pursuit of balance.

what i don't accept is that the media is solely to blame. or that people weren't warned about a lot of the stuff that is now being reported as news. it was out there if people wanted to find it. 

[Alex 35097]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

what i don't accept is that the media is solely to blame. 

That’s your straw man argument anyway tbh

[Dr Gloom 21954]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

That’s your straw man argument anyway tbh

how is it strawman? 

you said

Gloom’s esteemed colleagues in the media were largely quiet about it until it was far too late

and yet quality "MSM" outlets such as the FT reported on the risks posed by a tory hard brexit, such as the VAT question in the link i provided further up the thread, from 2018 - long before johnson was given his mandate to get brexit done. 
 

 

[Alex 35097]

The FT is a specialist publication behind a paywall 

[Rayvin 5223]

More than anything it was the BBC who failed us. The FT isn't read by the sorts of people who needed to be persuaded and the gutter press weren't going to do us any favours. 

 

Kuensberg has a lot to answer for as the BBC's lead political editor. Along with Marr. And whoever it was at the BBC who decided to leave Johnson pretty much unchallenged despite all his bullshit.

 

Piers bloody Morgan is doing a better job of holding the government to account for their bullshit than the BBC are for crying out loud.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21954]

@alex

the times and telegraph are also behind paywalls these days. they're MSM too

you also said

WERE THE IMPLICATIONS FULLY EXPLAINED BY THE MSM? Were they fuck

again it depends on what you mean by MSM

if you meant probrexit outlets such as the mail, the sun, the telegraph or the spectator, then no - they weren't

if by MSM you mean the likes of the FT, the guardian, the indie or the new statesman, then i'd say yes, they were. 

how do i know? because the information was out there. we all knew there were risks - it's all we have talked about on here for years - the information was out there!

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Alex 35097]

The MSM reference is a bit of a pisstake on here as it triggers you every time. Use the ‘majority of the mainstream press’ and I think it’s an accurate assessment 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

Yeah, I get that and I am easily triggered because it is a majority of our media, it’s true. And I don’t want to be lumbered with them - there are still a good number of quality publications out there and plenty of honest reporters who warned about so much of this stuff. 

[ewerk 30642]

It’s hard to disagree with Gloom.

[Dr Gloom 21954]

3 hours ago, ewerk said:

It’s hard to disagree with Gloom.

Now that is the kind of quality journalism we all need more of in our lives  

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21638]

4 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

@alex

the times and telegraph are also behind paywalls these days. they're MSM too

you also said

WERE THE IMPLICATIONS FULLY EXPLAINED BY THE MSM? Were they fuck

again it depends on what you mean by MSM

if you meant probrexit outlets such as the mail, the sun, the telegraph or the spectator, then no - they weren't

if by MSM you mean the likes of the FT, the guardian, the indie or the new statesman, then i'd say yes, they were. 

how do i know? because the information was out there. we all knew there were risks - it's all we have talked about on here for years - the information was out there!

 

Do you think this board is remotely representative of the British public? It's not. Asking that lass to have understood she was a liable for VAT on  a £200 imported coat based on a paywalled article in the FT 2 years ago is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? And then having the gall to say the BBC shouldn't have reported it because it's not news?

 

Well I've got news for you, it was news for her and it was news to most people! It wouldn't have been news if you had done your job properly (you meaning the MSM, virtually all of it, not you personally). And you're still getting basic facts wrong. 

[NJS 4389]

It's the narrow world view of most brits that is exposed - we take the piss out of Americans without passports but far too many British people have no interest in anything beyond going to Spain for a fortnight - that's why bemoaning mainly young people being denied freedom of movement meant nowt to leave voters. 

 

Another thing that never entered their minds was simple things like buying things from abroad. I've bought some electronics from the US and from Hong Kong or China in the past and have accepted the ball ache of customs and vat by including it in the price but obviously it being a  thing for EU countries is new. 

 

"If it doesn't affect me it doesn't matter" is the mantra. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Do you think this board is remotely representative of the British public? It's not. Asking that lass to have understood she was a liable for VAT on  a £200 imported coat based on a paywalled article in the FT 2 years ago is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? And then having the gall to say the BBC shouldn't have reported it because it's not news?

 

Well I've got news for you, it was news for her and it was news to most people! It wouldn't have been news if you had done your job properly (you meaning the MSM, virtually all of it, not you personally). And you're still getting basic facts wrong. 

Do I honestly need to go searching through the past few years of the many UK media publications which published articles warning of the various risks of a Tory/hard Brexit?

Of course I don’t. All you need to do is re-read this thread. We’ve all posted enough links and tweets. The reporting was done - and not just in the FT. 

And thank you for making my point for me. Of course I know this board isn’t representative of the country. The country is full of ill-informed dickheads. Let’s go back to the workers rights story last week - they were warned it was coming! Labour made the point for four years! It’s time people took responsibility for the decisions they make at the ballot box. They voted to get Brexit done and now they’re getting what they wanted. 

Finally, why shouldn’t quality journalism be behind a paywall? People used to pay for newspapers. Accurate, quality journalism is out there if you pay for it. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

Maybe I’m growing heartless in middle age, I don’t know, but I don’t even feel much sympathy for this bloke

Because how can we feel sympathetic when the person who voted to screw up their own life also screwed up our own and our kids with their vote? I mean, it's not as if there wasn't an entire campaign warning him of the consequences of what he was doing and how much his livelihood would be hit

[Dr Gloom 21954]

13 minutes ago, NJS said:

It's the narrow world view of most brits that is exposed - we take the piss out of Americans without passports but far too many British people have no interest in anything beyond going to Spain for a fortnight - that's why bemoaning mainly young people being denied freedom of movement meant nowt to leave voters. 

 

Another thing that never entered their minds was simple things like buying things from abroad. I've bought some electronics from the US and from Hong Kong or China in the past and have accepted the ball ache of customs and vat by including it in the price but obviously it being a  thing for EU countries is new. 

 

"If it doesn't affect me it doesn't matter" is the mantra. 

This is exactly what I’m getting at.

There was plenty of debate. Plenty of information out there for all to see - not just behind paywalls.

Whole ad campaigns on TV ffs - "Project Fear" warning about the economic hit that we'd take, Brown, Major, Blair and Cameron united (!) in telling people not to vote Leave, warning them not to do it!! And people did it because nationalism gave them a warm glow. So fuck em. (Sorry)

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[NJS 4389]

He was making a living within the EU but thought his life would be better out of it - just like knackers who work in car factories who fucking knew it was dependent on jit manufacturing. Just like the people of Lincolnshire who hated the Eastern European farm workers but wouldn't do the jobs when they left. There was a lot of shite propaganda but fuck me they still have to own it which is why this let's all forgive and forget bullshit leaves me cold. 

[Renton 21638]

44 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Maybe I’m growing heartless in middle age, I don’t know, but I don’t even feel much sympathy for this bloke

Because how can we feel sympathetic when the person who voted to screw up their own life also screwed up our own and our kids with their vote? I mean, it's not as if there wasn't an entire campaign warning him of the consequences of what he was doing and how much his livelihood would be hit

 

Because there was an entire campaign lying saying the opposite which were more convincing? Partly because the media, collectively and individually, didnt do their job? Take the bus, the media fact checked the £350 million figure was an exaggerated gross figure rather than a net figure. Fine. But who gives a fuck whether its 350 or 200 million, it still sounds like a fortune either way. What the media never explained was that the loss of trade outweighed this by at least a magnitude, or that the payment to the EU amounted to a cup of costa a week each. Amd they rarely explained the benefits of membership (Remain also failed spectacularly on this score). 

 

The bloke made the wrong choice but has had the humility to admit it. I can respect that. You need to embrace the prodigal son to move forward. This guy isn't to blame, he was conned along with millions of others. The people to blame are the corrupt politicians and the media who were complicit in their lies. 

[ewerk 30642]

To the man in the street it's much easier to accept the message 'vote leave and your life will be so much better' as opposed to 'vote remain and we'll keep things the way they are'. It's human nature to want to believe the conman.

[ewerk 30642]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930

 

Good news for the North East but I can't help think that while other car manufacturers are still warning about the future of their UK plants that Nissan must have agreed a pretty sweet deal with the government to make such a commitment. 

Also, this bit seems odd:

Quote

It came as Nissan paused one of its two production lines in Sunderland on Friday as disruption at ports caused by the pandemic affected its supply chain.

The disruption at the ports is now down to covid and nothing to do with Brexit?

[Alex 35097]

According to the BBC so it must be so 😎

[Toonpack 9451]

59 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Also, this bit seems odd:

The disruption at the ports is now down to covid and nothing to do with Brexit?

That narrative was utterly predictable

Edited January 22, 2021 by Toonpack