Europe --- In or Out

[Dr Gloom 21924]

40 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

There’s an image no one wants for breakfast 

I’m now picturing a bollock-naked Johnson, being pelted with rotten fruit. Thanks, Rayvin. 

[Renton 21627]

15 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

If Scotland gets indyref2 off the back of GB leaving the EU and votes to leave the UK then what they’ve just been through in the last 3.5 years will look like a walk in the park.   I genuinely fear what life on the Scottish/English border where I was brought up will be like in 20 years time. 

 

I cant see how any sentinent being thinks either that or the current pile of shit is worth the fuckin candle tbh. I’ve been to some extent a reluctant Remainer, the EU requires reforming to say the least. But the bigger picture is the rise of right wing populism across most western democracies. Otherwise fairly normal people seem to think this is a reasonable road to go down, ignoring the motives of the bad actors  leading us down it and lessons that the events of the mid 20th century were supposed to have taught us. What a fuckin mess. 

 

 

How can Scotland continue with the present set up? Constantly ignore and abused by Westminster? They have a real argument for sovereignty. Why didn't the referendum require a majority in each country? Increasingly I see no other option for them but true independence. 

The Scottish English border is much simpler than the NI border  

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

36 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I’m now picturing a bollock-naked Johnson, being pelted with rotten fruit. Thanks, Rayvin. 

Spoiler

* retch. 

[Rayvin 5223]

 

I meant the cries of 'shame' but interesting where your minds went.

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

You didn’t think of Cercei’s snapper? 

 

 

Is you batty? 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

26 minutes ago, Renton said:

How can Scotland continue with the present set up? Constantly ignore and abused by Westminster? They have a real argument for sovereignty. Why didn't the referendum require a majority in each country? Increasingly I see no other option for them but true independence. 

The Scottish English border is much simpler than the NI border  

indy ref 2 is on the table whatever happens, and who could blame them wanting to be shot of us? 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

indy ref 2 is on the table whatever happens, and who could blame them wanting to be shot of us? 

 

If Scotland goes they're going to take a large number of younger people from England with them.

 

Which will probably be an economic boon tbh.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

if we end up with a NI-only backstop or no deal, there is a compelling case for scotland calling a referendum. 

when a GE is called to break the deadlock, the SNP will play a big role in the anti-no deal alliance. if corbyn wants to govern, he might have to give sturgeon what she wants. 

i'm not young, but could well be tempted north of the border. 

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

The Sweaties are unbearable as it is, can you imagine being English and living there post-independence? 

It’d be like a real life, permanent rerun of Braveheart. 

 

 

[PaddockLad 17281]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

How can Scotland continue with the present set up? Constantly ignore and abused by Westminster? They have a real argument for sovereignty. Why didn't the referendum require a majority in each country? Increasingly I see no other option for them but true independence. 

The Scottish English border is much simpler than the NI border  

 

No you’re right it’s impossible for the status quo to continue when you look at it with any degree of clarity. I just fear for the entire UK on its break up which seems inevitable now. Who knows what will be unleashed. Whenever there is a hard border anywhere on the planet there are issues. I think the price for an independent Scotland within the EU will be border posts in Scotland. I saw it happen in Croatia in 2013. It will be a way for the EU to punish what will then probably be England & Wales for leaving.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by PaddockLad

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Monkeys Fist said:

The Sweaties are unbearable as it is, can you imagine being English and living there post-independence? 

It’d be like a real life, permanent rerun of Braveheart. 

 

 

 

I'm half Scottish anyway and I'd consider myself Northumbrian rather than English. Who do you associate with most, Scots or brummies? Fuck English nationalism that has led us to this mess. Fuck England.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Renton

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

No you’re right it’s impossible for the status quo to continue when you look at it with any degree of clarity. I just fear for the entire UK on its break up which seems inevitable now. Who knows what will be unleashed. Whenever there is a hard border anywhere on the planet there are issues. I think the price for an independent Scotland within the EU will be border posts in Scotland. I saw it happen in Croatia in 2013. It will be a way for the EU to punish what will then probably be England & Wales for leaving.

 

 

 

Agreed. This could be the worst legacy of Brexit, worse than the economic impact long term. I hope it's not too late but it feels like the genie is out the lamp now. 

[PaddockLad 17281]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I'm half Scottish anyway and I'd consider myself Northumbria rather than English. Who do you associate with most, Scots or brummies? Fuck English nationalism that has led us to this mess. Fuck England.

 

Youre the same ethnic mix as me. And I feel Northumbrian above anything else. I objected to Gaelic “welcome to Scotland” signs on the border at the carter bar on Twitter a while back and ran into trouble with the entire Scots Nats cyber bots who appear to want to enforce a national language over to whole of the country, even in places where it’s never been spoken...

[ewerk 30620]

4 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

No you’re right it’s impossible for the status quo to continue when you look at it with any degree of clarity. I just fear for the entire UK on its break up which seems inevitable now. Who knows what will be unleashed. Whenever there is a hard border anywhere on the planet there are issues. I think the price for an independent Scotland within the EU will be border posts in Scotland. I saw it happen in Croatia in 2013. It will be a way for the EU to punish what will then probably be England & Wales for leaving.

 

 

Yes but you do have to remember that Scotland is heavily reliant on the rest of the UK for trade. Post-Brexit barriers to trade would severely hamper a newly independent Scotland.

[PaddockLad 17281]

13 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Yes but you do have to remember that Scotland is heavily reliant on the rest of the UK for trade. Post-Brexit barriers to trade would severely hamper a newly independent Scotland.

 

Yeah. They’ve got a lot of lovely blue & white flags though so that’s ok...

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

I've now watched that several times, and her position makes complete sense to me. I genuinely don't understand what it is that people are struggling to grasp.

 

Labour's position - we will negotiate a deal (probably along the lines of an off the shelf Norway/Canada model with some tweaks for the UK specific requirements) that we believe is the best we can get while fulfilling the original Brexit mandate, and then we will put it to the people but still maintain that Remain is a better option.

 

So in other words, they're giving the people a fully informed decision made as safe as it can be.

 

Honest to fuck I despair at the media in this country, they're fucking cretins.

 

EDIT - I'm going to add that I thought it was stupid at first too, but the fact that it clearly is not, and that it's still doing the rounds as if it is, makes me despair.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30620]

The danger from the leave POV is that the EU will give us the worst possible deal in order to boost the remain vote.

It does seem nonsensical to say they'll negotiate a deal then possibly campaign against that deal.

Remain vs May's deal would make more sense except they probably couldn't find anyone to campaign on May's deal.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

The danger from the leave POV is that the EU will give us the worst possible deal in order to boost the remain vote.

It does seem nonsensical to say they'll negotiate a deal then possibly campaign against that deal.

Remain vs May's deal would make more sense except they probably couldn't find anyone to campaign on May's deal.

 

Only if you believe that there is actually some kind of negotiation required here. Maybe I've missed this, but it has seemed to me that the EU has more or less said that we can have any of the off the shelf models, or a tailor made bespoke model that is a stones throw off no deal. Assuming Labour aren't going for the latter option, they're literally going to be coming back with Soft Brexit. So then it goes to the people and we have a choice. Are you saying that the EU would somehow turn around and say that actually, we can't have soft Brexit because it's more likely that we will vote to Remain if they force us into almost No Deal?

 

The responsible thing for May to have done is literally what Labour has just proposed. Obviously she would have campaigned for her deal, but given that Labour campaigned pre-referendum to Remain, I don't think a cross party backed exit deal followed by a referendum within which they campaign for Remain is at all inconsistent. It's just fucking honest. There is no variation of leaving this trading bloc that is better than just staying the fuck in. That's what Labour's position is.

[ewerk 30620]

I understand what you're saying but it's more about how the Brexit side will spin this to the average joe.

[NJS 4386]

That's what I was trying to say the other day - it makes sense but it's a bad sale to the zealots on both sides. Or the hard of thinking for that matter. 

[Renton 21627]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Only if you believe that there is actually some kind of negotiation required here. Maybe I've missed this, but it has seemed to me that the EU has more or less said that we can have any of the off the shelf models, or a tailor made bespoke model that is a stones throw off no deal. Assuming Labour aren't going for the latter option, they're literally going to be coming back with Soft Brexit. So then it goes to the people and we have a choice. Are you saying that the EU would somehow turn around and say that actually, we can't have soft Brexit because it's more likely that we will vote to Remain if they force us into almost No Deal?

 

The responsible thing for May to have done is literally what Labour has just proposed. Obviously she would have campaigned for her deal, but given that Labour campaigned pre-referendum to Remain, I don't think a cross party backed exit deal followed by a referendum within which they campaign for Remain is at all inconsistent. It's just fucking honest. There is no variation of leaving this trading bloc that is better than just staying the fuck in. That's what Labour's position is.

It would be better if any negotiator stayed away from campaigning. Get the deal, and put it to the people. Still a bit of a fuck on like. 

 

You know, all people had to do to understand this so called negotiation (it's not, it's a choice) was look at Barnier's steps from Germnay plus (what we currently have), right down to Turkey (Corbyn), Canada (May) and WTO (Johnson), with the pros and cons of each truthfully explained. It's barely a 10 minute lesson. 

[Meenzer 15531]

Yeah but polski skleps.

[Isegrim 9780]

 

[RobinRobin 11281]

He is from Yorkshire, though, so regards himself as part of a sovereign nation outside the EU and the UK, already.

Edited September 11, 2019 by RobinRobin