Europe --- In or Out

[ewerk 30616]

44 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

The amendment in the name of Stephen Kinnock didn’t have a vote as the Government didn’t provide tellers to count. This meant the amendment went through although the No Lobby was full. This wasn’t an accident you can be assured there’s some skullduggery going on

So the theory is that lots of Tories wanted to vote for it but government was against so rather than suffer another rebellion they came up with this ploy.

[ewerk 30616]

Another theory was that the government were betting that MPs would want the Lords to remove the amendment and so it would have to come back to the Commons again and thus eat up more time.

Edited September 4, 2019 by ewerk

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Anorthernsoul said:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

 

If you're referring to the extension, this one would settle it. We get clear of No Deal, have a GE, the Tories have had more than enough rope to hang themselves now, and we finally put this back to a people's vote and kill the bastard once and for all.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If you're referring to the extension, this one would settle it. We get clear of No Deal, have a GE, the Tories have had more than enough rope to hang themselves now, and we finally put this back to a people's vote and kill the bastard once and for all.

 

Well aslong as you get your own way then everything is cool.

[Rayvin 5223]

9 minutes ago, Anorthernsoul said:

 

Well aslong as you get your own way then everything is cool.

 

It's not about that. Like it or not, the original referendum was so poorly conceived that it was in effect open to interpretation in any way at all.

 

If May had come out and said ok, we'll have soft Brexit which will reflect the closeness of the vote while minimising the harm to the UK, I would have accepted it. As would almost all Remainers, and it would have been straight through Parliament.

 

But she didn't. She wanted the hard right wet dream Brexit. There was never any mandate for this. No one can prove there was. The Tories have tried to maintain that there is somehow, but there just isn't. They've refused to compromise the whole way through, letting themselves be pulled farther and farther to the right, until we get here.

 

I will say unequivocally - if we have another vote, with No Deal on the ticket, and No Deal wins, fine. There's the mandate for it. Stupid as I think it is, as much as it fucks up my life, fine. But while the only mandate remains entirely imaginary, this must be resisted at all costs.

 

I really don't understand how leavers don't appreciate this. No one voted for no deal. No majority voted for Hard Brexit. It's clear as fucking day.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Rayvin

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Blah blah blah. 

 

They are all self serving cunts, I agree.

[acrossthepond 877]

Well said. During the campaign we (I mean you, but you know what I mean) were told repeatedly that No Deal would never happen and there was going to be a cracking deal and anything else was pure Project Fear (utter scum phrase, by the way.) So anyone who voted Leave did so under that pretense. That doesn't even get into the myriad other lies that Leave told, but that is The Big One as far as I'm concerned. 

Trying to equate 2016 Leave with 2018-2019 literally drive the Union and the economy off a cliff no-deal insanity is just another right-wing rhetorical trick. It may fool the masses, but it hasn't and won't fool Parliament. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Tactically speaking though, as a remainer, the Tories present a possible open goal for putting this to bed once and for all, and it would be stupid for us not to go for the whole thing. That's not our fault, it's theirs for being so fucking intransigent. 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Who'd have thought we'd have 17k posts in this thread and still be in this precarious position. Ludicrous really.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Anorthernsoul said:

Who'd have thought we'd have 17k posts in this thread and still be in this precarious position. Ludicrous really.

 

On this I agree. The whole thing has gone on for a truly insane amount of time.

[Rayvin 5223]

Speaking of insane amounts of time, Boris has managed to get the Tory Lords to table over 100 amendments to Benn in order to filibuster it indefinitely. The price for them not doing this is a GE, apparently.

[zerosum 234]

The thing that annoys me most, isn’t the fact this is dragging on forever (thats fucking annoying though).. but it’s the politicians who repeatedly state nobody voted for no deal. It’s as bad as leave means leave.

 

Regardless of the referendum result and what people actually voted for, it was those very same fuckers who triggered article 50, with the very real risk of no deal being the outcome.

 

It’s the biggest welch on a bet ever. 

 

they are all arseholes - every single politician- on every side!

Edited September 4, 2019 by zerosum

[Rayvin 5223]

17 minutes ago, zerosum said:

The thing that annoys me most, isn’t the fact this is dragging on forever (thats fucking annoying though).. but it’s the politicians who repeatedly state nobody voted for no deal. It’s as bad as leave means leave.

 

Regardless of the referendum result and what people actually voted for, it was those very same fuckers who triggered article 50, with the very real risk of no deal being the outcome.

 

It’s the biggest welch on a bet ever. 

 

they are all arseholes - every single politician- on every side!

 

None of the people voted for no deal at least though. We know this because literally no one from the leave campaign said it was on the table pre referendum.

 

And I think all the main parties who voted for article 50 were fairly clear that they wouldn't back no deal.

 

Seriously, this actually is a right wing coup. It just is. Had May just fucking compromised instead of being stubborn and dictatorial, we would 100% be having a Brexit. Not as hard as no deal, but harder than I would have liked for sure.

 

By going all in on the hardest possible version of this, the ERG have it all to lose. I remember back in March, Nick Boles voted for Mays deal. As a remainer. And he told the ERG that if they didnt vote for it, then he and many others would give up on a deal and start resisting Brexit full stop because anything further to the right of her deal was too harmful to accept.

 

They were warned and they did it anyway. Only. Themselves. To. Blame.

 

You should be angry with the people in charge of the Tories currently because they've risked the whole thing for a pure Brexit that a 48:52 split does not legitimise.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Rayvin

[zerosum 234]

I’m angry with all of them, but especially the ones who voted to trigger article 50 and now state no deal is not what people voted for. They were the ones who triggered it, with that risk attached. Not the people, they shouldn’t have triggered it in the first place. It’s the politicians who are currently destroying the country. None of them can make a decision and stick with it., whichever way they want it to go. Labour has changed from a leave backing party to a remain. 

 

[zerosum 234]

Sick to death with all of them 

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, zerosum said:

I’m angry with all of them, but especially the ones who voted to trigger article 50 and now state no deal is not what people voted for. They were the ones who triggered it, with that risk attached. Not the people, they shouldn’t have triggered it in the first place. It’s the politicians who are currently destroying the country. None of them can make a decision and stick with it., whichever way they want it to go. Labour has changed from a leave backing party to a remain. 

 

 

Labour hasn't changed. They want to do their own deal and don't want anything the Tories are offering, but there is literally no chance for them to enact their deal. They can't do anything except stop the Tories from hitting us with no deal.

 

And having a second referendum, which I believe is now their policy, isn't becoming a remain party unless you believe that a second referendum will almost certainly result in Brexit being killed. If you do believe that, the  surely you must also accept that this is now the will of the people at a point when the people have a far better understanding of what Brexit is.

 

As for not triggering article 50, that probably would have been denying the will of the people. But they did all expect that there would be cross party talks about the matter since May was intensely vulnerable and the country needed to unify. She opted not to do this. How is that their fault? She waded into her own version of reality which was rejected by all sides of the house, and left the government in the hands of the extremists. How can you possibly think that the Remain MPs are being the devious ones here.

 

I know you voted leave and that the risk of losing it would be deeply annoying to you, but its not the Remainers fault. They've been given a choice of the most extreme version of this, or standing up for what they believe is right, even if they lose their seats or membership of their parties.

[Renton 21627]

22 minutes ago, zerosum said:

I’m angry with all of them, but especially the ones who voted to trigger article 50 and now state no deal is not what people voted for. They were the ones who triggered it, with that risk attached. Not the people, they shouldn’t have triggered it in the first place. It’s the politicians who are currently destroying the country. None of them can make a decision and stick with it., whichever way they want it to go. Labour has changed from a leave backing party to a remain. 

 

 

What about the people now, a large minority of whom are chomping at the bit for no deal and all that entails. Can't articulate any benefits of Brexit, let alone no deal. Repeating inane crappy slogans that mean shit all. In polls, saying they are happy for their friends and close relatives to lose their livelihoods as long as they get their Brexit. Don't care if they split the union or cause a war in Ireland. Happy to vote for demonstrable self serving cunts like Farage or Johnson?

 

There are a few hundred scumbag MPs. There are millions of these gammon cunts. Yes, I blame the people. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Renton

[zerosum 234]

I’m no hard brexit type by any means.. just wish they’d actually thought about the bloody possibility that this mess could have been the outcome - from triggering article 50. Yeah would go against will of the people blah blah.. but if they believed so strongly back then as they do now, then it could have saved us all this crap .. and maybe there would be a different Government already. I dunno - kind of past caring too much, just sick to death of it all now. They need to get on with running the country, either being in or out of EU. End rant. 

[zerosum 234]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

What about the people now, a large minority of whom are chomping at the bit for no deal and all that entails. Can't articulate any benefits of Brexit, let alone no deal. Repeating inane crappy slogans that mean shit all. In polls, saying they are happy for their friends and close relatives to lose their livelihoods as long as they get their Brexit. Don't care if they split the union or cause a war in Ireland. Happy to vote for demonstrable self serving cunts like Farage or Johnson?

 

There are a few hundred scumbag MPs. There are millions of these gammon cunts. Yes, I blame the people. 

 

We can’t change people from being gammon cunts.. but we can change the people who are bloody running the show. None of them are fit to do the job.

[Rayvin 5223]

I mean i agree but seriously mate, the Tories are the ones who have done this. And I'm not partisan on this issue, if the conservatives did an about face tomorrow and said they'd back remain, I'd vote for them.

 

They've been arrogant and they've overreacted, alienating everyone who isn't a hard Brexit supporter. That's nobodies fault but their own.

[zerosum 234]

I don’t disagree with you on where the party is now. Theresa was a nightmare in the end, but at first it seemed like she was trying to do her best after Cameron put his trotters up, it became apparent after a month that she was useless. Right now conservatives are beyond anything I’d want to vote for, but Labour is off the scale too. 

[Renton 21627]

Just now, zerosum said:

 

We can’t change people from being gammon cunts.. but we can change the people who are bloody running the show. None of them are fit to do the job.

 

I know, but that's the problem. We can't change the people running the show. Democracy is broken in this country and the US. People are so easily led by the nose from targetted social media and more traditional xenophobic MSM for nefarious reasons. Hope I'm wrong but I think we may be on the verge of societal breakdown soon. Same with climate change. 

[zerosum 234]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I know, but that's the problem. We can't change the people running the show. Democracy is broken in this country and the US. People are so easily led by the nose from targetted social media and more traditional xenophobic MSM for nefarious reasons. Hope I'm wrong but I think we may be on the verge of societal breakdown soon. Same with climate change. 

 

I hope you’re wrong too.. But you’re probably not! There’s nobody fit to run the country properly in any party, and can’t see. how any of it could change anytime soon. And all this fucking about over leave or not is letting each side at extremes fuel fires.

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, zerosum said:

I don’t disagree with you on where the party is now. Theresa was a nightmare in the end, but at first it seemed like she was trying to do her best after Cameron put his trotters up, it became apparent after a month that she was useless. Right now conservatives are beyond anything I’d want to vote for, but Labour is off the scale too. 

 

We were promised green pasteurs after Brexit. This was never possible in reality, it was always going to be damage limitation. May is a proven xenophobe, her red lines made that damage much worse than it had to be. Johnson is a populist, he doesn't give a shit about the EU either way.  That is a catastrophe for us.