Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

But a Remain win doesn't get rid of Farage. You're probably right but I do wonder if we are so blinkered we don't see that it's the EU who will decide now, not us. 

 

I'm sure the EU might get some grim satisfaction from rubbing it in Farage's face tbh.

 

It's a huge PR win for them if we stay. They did everything maturely and appropriately to facilitate us leaving, we looked at it and decided it was a nightmare, and changed our minds. That should give every other EU country pause if they approach the same decision.

[ewerk 30619]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Milo disappeared because the republican right wing abandoned him for saying he thought it was ok for young boys and men to have sexual relationships.

 

Tommy Robinson has been banned from everything except Youtube and while he "only" got 2.2% of the vote in the North West, that was 40,000 people. Sargon has been banned from everything except Youtube and got 60,000 or so votes.

 

There are too many upstart mediums for them to get their messages across now.

And Alan Graves got 60,000 votes for UKIP in East Midlands.

[Rayvin 5223]

Surely that just underlines my point. Giving them a platform or not isn't changing the vote share. We need to engage with the argument.

 

Unless Alan Graves has a comparable social media platform that I'm not aware of.

[Meenzer 15531]

51 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Unifying messages about diversity would have helped also, ones that don't denigrate one group to push up another (why would this ever lead to unity, seriously).

 

#NotAllMessages

[NJS 4386]

52 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Also, Ian Lavery has decided we're all snooty leftwing intellectuals...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/29/labour-chair-peoples-vote-backers-sneering-ordinary-people-ian-lavery

 

The message is really simple Ian. If you don't back a people's vote, you're not winning a GE. That's it. Unless you think Labour can appeal to the xenophobic/racist vote as well as the ordinary working class leavers, you're fucked.

I think the intellectual thing was a direct dig at Paul Mason who laid into him. 

 

I can sort of see his pov in that as I've argued here, there is a lack of empathy with leave voters from strong remainers which is why I have doubts about a surefire victory for remain in another vote. 

 

However I think we/they also have to think of the future and ensure Labour appeals to younger voters even if means writing off older "traditional" supporters in the the North and other ex-industroal areas. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by NJS

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, NJS said:

I think the intellectual thing was a direct dig at Paul Mason who laid into him. 

 

I can sort of see his pov in that as I've argued here, there is a lack of empathy with leave voters from strong temainets which is why I have doubts about a surefire victory for remain in another vote. 

 

However I think we/they also have to think of the future and end ensure Labour appeals to younger voters even if means writing off older "traditional" supporters in the the North and other ex-industroal areas. 

 

I have every sympathy with them but they're going to solve jack shit with brexit. There's having sympathy with people and there's enabling delusions...

[NJS 4386]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I have every sympathy with them but they're going to solve jack shit with brexit. There's having sympathy with people and there's enabling delusions...

Definitely - but on the other hand supposing remaining will solve all the problems is wrong as well which is why I think supporting the liberals or even a realigned Labour party is pointless - it's the addressing of why they were easily misled that's the way forward. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I wonder what CT makes of all of this, wherever he is. Part of me thought he would have been back over the weekend for a variety of reasons, not least because it would have been an opportunity to wind everyone up about Farage.

 

Maybe he's come over to our side now and is finally just as fearful of No Deal as we are..

 

 

Basically just bored with all at the minute. Bored with the last couple of months of May (TM), bored with the prospects of the leadership contest, bored with the labour leadership and bored by the lack of any resolution on the horizon.

 

Overjoyed at the potential football news which seems to have formed up a bit today.

 

Havent decided on a favourite for Tory leader but certainly not keen on the likes of Hunt, Boris or Jarvid.

 

Possibly think Gove could be the one to plot a sensible course forward but struggle to see anyone but Boris getting voted in by the blue rinse brigade.

 

As things stand, I’m not sure a GE or PV will resolve this.

 

My wish list now would for Corbyn / McDonnel to make way for someone like Rayner / Watson, them to work honestly with the new Tory leadership to agree a deal, that deal vs remain put to a final PV and get back to fighting politics on domestic policies.

[Rayvin 5223]

6 minutes ago, NJS said:

Definitely - but on the other hand supposing remaining will solve all the problems is wrong as well which is why I think supporting the liberals or even a realigned Labour party is pointless - it's the addressing of why they were easily misled that's the way forward. 

 

Remaining doesn't make the situation worse though, which makes it better than brexit. It brings us back to where we were. From there, as I said earlier, a Corbyn style government can do a lot of good. I'm more than ready to go back to Labour and vote for him for all his other policies, but I am not prepared to weaken the country first.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

Basically just bored with all at the minute. Bored with the last couple of months of May (TM), bored with the prospects of the leadership contest, bored with the labour leadership and bored by the lack of any resolution on the horizon.

 

Overjoyed at the potential football news which seems to have formed up a bit today.

 

Havent decided on a favourite for Tory leader but certainly not keen on the likes of Hunt, Boris or Jarvid.

 

Possibly think Gove could be the one to plot a sensible course forward but struggle to see anyone but Boris getting voted in by the blue rinse brigade.

 

As things stand, I’m not sure a GE or PV will resolve this.

 

My wish list now would for Corbyn / McDonnel to make way for someone like Rayner / Watson, them to work honestly with the new Tory leadership to agree a deal, that deal vs remain put to a final PV and get back to fighting politics on domestic policies.

 

Glad to see you're ok mate

[NJS 4386]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Remaining doesn't make the situation worse though, which makes it better than brexit. It brings us back to where we were. From there, as I said earlier, a Corbyn style government can do a lot of good. I'm more than ready to go back to Labour and vote for him for all his other policies, but I am not prepared to weaken the country first.

Even in the short term arguing that "going back to where we were" is good won't win over that many staunch leave voters. We need to provide a vision of hope beyond that - including attempting to reform the EU. 

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, NJS said:

Even in the short term arguing that "going back to where we were" is good won't win over that many staunch leave voters. We need to provide a vision of hope beyond that - including attempting to reform the EU. 

 

I think the EU is going to have to tackle that point with or without us, but it's not going to do it quickly enough. Also, I think a pivot towards a reform argument would be challenging in the short term as hardly anyone knows what they would reform, and people are sick of talking about this now.

 

I would prefer that Labour back Remain but do so with promises of genuine reform within the country following their election in the end, but that they need the national stability that remain would offer to do so. Contrast that with the Tory vision, which is nothing more than a tax haven with delusions of grandeur - I mean, they have no vision. Strongarm remain through, and then immediately, immediately, push back to domestic issues. The Tories won't be able to respond quick enough as they'll be all over the place, a GE follows, and Labour sweep in with the backing of a middle class that is grateful to them for having averted a crisis, and which has bought into their narrative about a better future off the back of Remaining.

[Renton 21627]

37 minutes ago, NJS said:

Even in the short term arguing that "going back to where we were" is good won't win over that many staunch leave voters. We need to provide a vision of hope beyond that - including attempting to reform the EU. 

 

What specific reforms do you want the EU to undertake? What is wrong with the current set up? Bearing in mind it has to represent all of its citizens, who do not necessarily share your socialist viewpoint. 

 

Do we want more democracy, an elected president maybe? How will Brexiters entertain that idea? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't, a significant proportion of our country simply hate the idea of power sharing and vote sharing in a union. 

 

For me I think it's obvious the EU is heading in a federalist direction, incrementally. I have no issue with this at all, in fact I'm fully supportive. But we have to be honest with ourselves and ask is this what most people in the UK want? I think it is in the younger age groups but not overall. So, not yet. This being the case I would favour a political divorce but not an economic one (i.e. Norway). Yes, ironically it will be a loss of sovereignty but not in any domain a reasonable person gives a fuck about. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Renton

[NJS 4386]

I agree on the need for internal reform - just saying external reform should be on the table too. 

 

I think back to years of Thatcher etc selling negotiations with the EU as going to war - if we do somehow remain we need to change that attitude which has been central to the problem. 

[NJS 4386]

Just now, Renton said:

 

What specific reforms do you want the EU to undertake? What is wrong with the current set up? Bearing in mind it has to represent all of its citizens, who do not necessarily share your socialist viewpoint. 

 

Do we want more democracy, an elected president maybe? How will Brexiters entertain that idea? There damned if they do and damned if they don't, a significant proportion of our country simply hate the idea of power sharing nad vote sharing in a union. 

 

For me I think it's obvious the EU is heading in a federalist direction, incrementally. I have no issue with this at all, in fact I'm fully supportive. But we have to be honest with ourselves and ask is this what most people in the UK want? I think it is in the younger age groups but not overall. So, not yet. This being the case I would favour a political divorce but not an economic one (Norway). Yes, ironically it will be a loss of sovereignty but not in any domain a reasonable person gives a fuck about. 

More democracy, less coupling with ecb and its austerity agenda, wiggle room for state intervention. 

 

I still think the vision of a block big enough to rival the US, China and the rest makes sense and we should play a full part in it but I can see its a hard sell. 

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, NJS said:

I agree on the need for internal reform - just saying external reform should be on the table too. 

 

I think back to years of Thatcher etc selling negotiations with the EU as going to war - if we do somehow remain we need to change that attitude which has been central to the problem. 

 

Oh, definitely. Its always us and them here. On the continent, they realise they are them. It's indicative of another more fundamental issue I think, English exceptionalism. We just aren't ready to properly integrate. Brexit could be the humbling event which changes this (looking on the bright side from my pov). 

[Renton 21627]

7 minutes ago, NJS said:

More democracy, less coupling with ecb and its austerity agenda, wiggle room for state intervention. 

 

I still think the vision of a block big enough to rival the US, China and the rest makes sense and we should play a full part in it but I can see its a hard sell. 

 

To paraphrase Gove, we've had enough of democracy. 

 

I'm partly serious. We have to fix our domestic democracy before worrying about the much less important deficiencies of the EU. 

[ewerk 30619]

I'm pretty sure nearly all the public's grievances with the EU are imagined. But to tell them that implies that they're stupid (which they most certainly are).

[Gemmill 44896]

I love Steve Van Zandt (Springsteen's guitarist and star of the Sopranos) on Twitter. Constantly going wild about what a fuckup Brexit is. He's fucking class. 

 

 

[RobinRobin 11281]

14 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I'm sure the EU might get some grim satisfaction from rubbing it in Farage's face tbh.

But it would mean him remaining in the EU Parliament, so they would really have to weigh up their options carefully.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

https://newsthump.com/2018/12/10/boris-johnson-hoping-new-haircut-tricks-people-into-forgetting-hes-a-twat/?fbclid=IwAR0RoIANAj70eL_0VKJRv7srpVBahVnEg1sQZz9Fi9agZH-2Srfgh5gnyzE

[Rayvin 5223]

Feels like the gambit to force Labour into backing a second referendum has won the day. Corbyn seems to have basically endorsed the position now. In part I think we've also been helped by Farage - the prospect of coming up with some kind of deal has been torn apart from both sides, so now Labour can't deny that it's No Deal or No Brexit.

 

The question from here I think is how firmly and visibly they're going to back this. If Corbyn just comes out and says "yeah ok, second referendum on any vote but let's talk about domestic policy" then he may as well not bother. It needs to be loud and furious - "The Tories are trying to take us out with no deal to the detriment of the entire country, and it is imperative that we get a second vote so that we can stop this damage before it is too late - the Labour Party will immediately begin campaigning for this outcome".

 

I suspect it'll be somewhere between the two, but I hope it's closer to the latter..

[NJS 4386]

Being honest I suspect he still thinks if there was a GE and he could get a better deal than May's then he'd say it isn't necessary. 

[Gemmill 44896]

Hasn't he gone to Ireland today and started sounding like he's not even sure Remain would be on the ballot? He's such a confused dickhead. 

 

In other news, Owen Jones reckons Laura Pidcock should be in the shadow cabinet. Fuck. That. 

[ewerk 30619]

I assumed she already was. She’s certainly terrible enough to be in there.