Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 5176]

I think there is a workable angle here though. What May is looking for, I feel, is for Labour to take a theoretically equal share of the blame for whatever outcome is on offer. If Corbyn accepts that, and can use it to get Labour's options, then I would say it's worth it.

 

Both parties get punished by the electorate, although given how fucking close we would have come to No Deal I think Labour would get some love from Remainers.

[Alex 34846]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think there is a workable angle here though. What May is looking for, I feel, is for Labour to take a theoretically equal share of the blame for whatever outcome is on offer. If Corbyn accepts that, and can use it to get Labour's options, then I would say it's worth it.

 

Both parties get punished by the electorate, although given how fucking close we would have come to No Deal I think Labour would get some love from Remainers.

They’re losing the next election anyway so they might as well do something good. Doubt Corbyn’s got the vision to see it that way though 

[wykikitoon 19888]

I consider myself to know some basics on politics.  Now a lot of what you guys are saying is going over my head.  You're obv a lot more clue'd up than I am.

Which makes the whole party politics shite referendum in the first place by them Tory Cunts and Cameron even more infuriating.  It was too simple.  Yes or No.

[Alex 34846]

24 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Out of interest, if Corbyn somehow pulls Norway or PV2 out of the bag, does that mean he gets a little slack on here? Don't answer, I already know.

 

Curious though that his really really fucking really long game approach might actually work in the end. He let the Tories run out of rope and now May is at his door.

I’d be delighted if he proved me wrong. You don’t actually think this a long term strategy that’s goinv to come to fruition though, do you? Assuming either of those outcomes happen, for argument’s sake. I get the distinct impression he’s been winging it as much as the government. I also think he’s anti-EU and he’s just hoped the Tory party would destroy itself so he could gain politically. It says a lot about his ineptitude as a leader that the former has happened without the latter following imo

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

They’re losing the next election anyway so they might as well do something good. Doubt Corbyn’s got the vision to see it that way though 

 

Corbyn will be counting on being able to rally people behind Labour as he did last time. I don't think polls fall into his strategy much - so I do understand why he takes the approach you've noted.

 

I don't think it will have quite the same effect this time though, largely because I think circumstances have changed in terms of how Labour is viewed - but that said, I do think most of the damage done to them in recent times has been from Remainers being angry, and if he pulls the rabbit out of the hat I think they would stop finding reasons not to support Labour.

 

1 minute ago, Alex said:

I’d be delighted if he proved me wrong. You don’t actually think this a long term strategy that’s goinv to come to fruition though, do you? Assuming either of those outcomes happen, for argument’s sake. I get the distinct impression he’s been winging it as much as the government. I also think he’s anti-EU and he’s just hoped the Tory party would destroy itself so he could gain politically. It says a lot about his ineptitude as a leader that the former has happened without the latter following imo

 

I dunno tbh. I genuinely think Labour's "strategy" was not to nail it's colours to the mast until the Tories gave it something to oppose. May's deal did this, it was universally hated, and so Labour started making noises about credible alternatives. I do think it was important not to come out as the party of Remain early on though - if they did that, the right wing press would be full of talk about them sabotaging Brexit. As it is, they've let the Tories disintegrate in front of the eyes of the nation, and have a reasonably compelling story behind their soft Brexit move, on the one hand putting forward that it's the best option for people and the economy, and on the other hand sort of positioning themselves in a way that it looks like they had no choice but to act rather than trying to drive the process.

[Rayvin 5176]

I'm going to add, because I'm a realist, that I also half expect Corbyn to come out of that meeting having somehow basically agreed to everything May wanted while celebrating having extracted concessions on some manner of public transport issue.

[ewerk 30266]

@Kevin Carr's Gloves pretty much called me insane two years ago when I suggested that Labour and the Tories should work together on a deal that could please both parties. It could have saved a lot of time and hassle if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom had listened to me then.

[Rayvin 5176]

In defence of KCG's point, you'd have a hard time finding anyone who thinks that anything going on in Parliament now is "sane".

[ewerk 30266]

You were also against the plan.

I don't forget...

[NJS 4371]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

@Kevin Carr's Gloves pretty much called me insane two years ago when I suggested that Labour and the Tories should work together on a deal that could please both parties. It could have saved a lot of time and hassle if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom had listened to me then.

For all of my black and white eyes, I thought a cross party consensus process should have been started the day after the result. 

[Rayvin 5176]

I figured I would have been. If it had happened then do you think we would have had a soft Brexit? Or any chance of PV2?

 

I do concede incidentally that your ability to remember random things people have said on here over the years is unparalleled

[Renton 21300]

There are a few twists to come yet. Two things strike me. First, that was a long meeting they had yesterday. Second, there were no resignations. What were they talking about? Honestly, most probably they have formulated a plan to stitch up Corbyn imo, they've laid a trap for him. 

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

There are a few twists to come yet. Two things strike me. First, that was a long meeting they had yesterday. Second, there were no resignations. What were they talking about? Honestly, most probably they have formulated a plan to stitch up Corbyn imo, they've laid a trap for him. 

 

Are the Tories competent enough for this? But then, is Corbyn competent enough to avoid it...

 

What kind of trap though, I'm struggling to think of one short of trying to blame the whole thing on him if we crash out with No Deal. Which would support the majority votes cast by the cabinet now I think about it.

[Renton 21300]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are the Tories competent enough for this? But then, is Corbyn competent enough to avoid it...

 

What kind of trap though, I'm struggling to think of one short of trying to blame the whole thing on him if we crash out with No Deal. Which would support the majority votes cast by the cabinet now I think about it.

 

Yes, exactly that. They're getting him to dip his hands in the blood. That Dunt article was informative regarding the extension. Since she is going for the short extension I think she is acting in bad faith. 

[ewerk 30266]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I figured I would have been. If it had happened then do you think we would have had a soft Brexit? Or any chance of PV2?

 

I think if that had been the promise from the beginning then I'd have accepted a soft Brexit and the remain side would have been much quieter than they have been. It's May's dangerous incompetence and the risk of a hard Brexit that has fired up the movement.

[Rayvin 5176]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Yes, exactly that. They're getting him to dip his hands in the blood. That Dunt article was informative regarding the extension. Since she is going for the short extension I think she is acting in bad faith. 

 

Would it fly though? I mean if Corbyn sticks to his guns about Labour's policies then it's not really a 'win' for May, is it? And seriously, she must be getting fucked off with a good number of Tories by now. Why she would want to do that pack of cunts any favours is beyond me.

 

So Corbyn comes out of the meeting and says they couldn't agree anything, while simultaneously saying that a People's Vote on her deal would be something he would support - so his standing position. I don't see how she successfully pins No Deal on him for that position. That's a really fair position from Labour given the impasse in parliament.

 

Also I note that Barclay just said this:

 

The Lib Dem MP Wera Hobhouse goes next.

Q: If a confirmatory referendum were attached to the PM’s deal, would you vote against it?

Barclay says there are no preconditions to the talks with Labour.

But he says a second referendum would prolong uncertainty, and could take the UK back to the starting point. He goes on:

But we will need to look at this.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30266]

At least he's learning something after refusing to meet with her at all following MV1.

[ewerk 30266]

Just now, Rayvin said:

So Corbyn comes out of the meeting and says they couldn't agree anything, while simultaneously saying that a People's Vote on her deal would be something he would support - so his standing position. I don't see how she successfully pins No Deal on him for that position. That's a really fair position from Labour given the impasse in parliament.

 

She doesn't. The meeting is risk free for Corbyn. If nothing comes of it then at least he can claim to have tried his best to push Brexit through.

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I think if that had been the promise from the beginning then I'd have accepted a soft Brexit and the remain side would have been much quieter than they have been. It's May's dangerous incompetence and the risk of a hard Brexit that has fired up the movement.

 

Yeah true but there's no chance they would have both agreed PV2. And Corbyn's position to go for a softer Brexit would have surely attracted much more ire with leavers? Wouldn't the Tories have just slammed Labour over this? Whereas now they can't really slam them because they've failed themselves.

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

She doesn't. The meeting is risk free for Corbyn. If nothing comes of it then at least he can claim to have tried his best to push Brexit through.

 

I mean, I don't know if Corbyn is sufficiently mentally equipped for the term 'risk free' to be thrown about, but yes

[Renton 21300]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Would it fly though? I mean if Corbyn sticks to his guns about Labour's policies then it's not really a 'win' for May, is it? And seriously, she must be getting fucked off with a good number of Tories by now. Why she would want to do that pack of cunts any favours is beyond me.

 

So Corbyn comes out of the meeting and says they couldn't agree anything, while simultaneously saying that a People's Vote on her deal would be something he would support - so his standing position. I don't see how she successfully pins No Deal on him for that position. That's a really fair position from Labour given the impasse in parliament.

 

Also I note that Barclay just said this:

 

The Lib Dem MP Wera Hobhouse goes next.

Q: If a confirmatory referendum were attached to the PM’s deal, would you vote against it?

Barclay says there are no preconditions to the talks with Labour.

But he says a second referendum would prolong uncertainty, and could take the UK back to the starting point. He goes on:

But we will need to look at this.

 

I don't know what the odds of her being successful are or even exactly what she is up to. But no senior resignations in a cabinet now with a majority of no dealers? Doesn't feel right. 

[ewerk 30266]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah true but there's no chance they would have both agreed PV2. And Corbyn's position to go for a softer Brexit would have surely attracted much more ire with leavers? Wouldn't the Tories have just slammed Labour over this? Whereas now they can't really slam them because they've failed themselves.

It was the failure of Theresa May for years not to properly define the terms of Brexit that allowed the hardliners to create their own vision. Had she come straight out of the traps after becoming PM she could have managed expectations, gained cross party support and gotten on with it. 

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I don't know what the odds of her being successful are or even exactly what she is up to. But no senior resignations in a cabinet now with a majority of no dealers? Doesn't feel right. 

 

They all want power though, would a resignation count against them? Also, from what I've read about May she's really guarded even with the cabinet (probably because she's making it up as she goes along). It's quite possible she said basically nothing and they're not going to pull the trigger before they know exactly what she's about to agree to. And since she won't know herself yet, maybe that's all it is.

[spongebob toonpants 3948]

For me the only way Corbyn can possibly redeem his pathetic performance over Brexit is to get PV included as part of the deal. 

I've never missed a vote in any election since I was 18, nearly forty years worth and I have voted straight Labour every time. If Corbyn enables Brexit without a PV that's me done until he has gone.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, ewerk said:

It was the failure of Theresa May for years not to properly define the terms of Brexit that allowed the hardliners to create their own vision. Had she come straight out of the traps after becoming PM she could have managed expectations, gained cross party support and gotten on with it. 

 

Tbf, this is completely true. But with her position being what it was, I don't think it would have made sense for Labour to enter into an early cross party solution with her.