Europe --- In or Out

[NJS 4355]

Could cost him the leadership this - once the youth backlash hits and is reflected in polls it could be the start of the end for him. 

 

I'm quite happy to contemplate a better leader as long as there's not a huge centrist swing. 

[Rayvin 5150]

31 minutes ago, NJS said:

Could cost him the leadership this - once the youth backlash hits and is reflected in polls it could be the start of the end for him. 

 

I'm quite happy to contemplate a better leader as long as there's not a huge centrist swing. 

 

I just don't care anymore. The paradox is that many of the people I feel need the left are actively voting against it, and at some point you just have to hold your hands up and say 'fuck it, I'm going to look out for myself on this one'. And if that means the centrists, and perpetuation of norms which will ultimately hit the working and under classes hardest... then so be it. Better than those same groups underpinning a far right revolution.

 

It's pointless, it's like a macrocosm of issues with an individual. If someone keeps harming themselves personally, you can try to intervene, you can try to help them, but nothing is going to change the fact that the individual in question isn't going to get out of their mess until they decide to do so themselves. Once the poor and stupid decide to help themselves, I'll be right there voting with them. Until then, I'm voting for myself while they vote for mass suicide.

 

So yes, I hope his fucking stupid position does cost him the leadership.

[ewerk 30159]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

And if that means the centrists, and perpetuation of norms which will ultimately hit the working and under classes hardest... then so be it

Aye, when that evil centrist New Labour introduced the minimum wage, doubled apprenticeships, greatly increased spening on education, cut NHS waiting lists by 500,000, doubled the overseas aid budget, introduced the HRA, took 900,000 pensioners out of poverty, increased police numbers by 16,000, introduced free nursery places for three and four year olds, offered free cancer prescriptions, decreased homelessness by 73% and set up Sure Start they really fucked over the poorest in our society.

[Rayvin 5150]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Aye, when that evil centrist New Labour introduced the minimum wage, doubled apprenticeships, greatly increased spening on education, cut NHS waiting lists by 500,000, doubled the overseas aid budget, introduced the HRA, took 900,000 pensioners out of poverty, increased police numbers by 16,000, introduced free nursery places for three and four year olds, offered free cancer prescriptions, decreased homelessness by 73% and set up Sure Start they really fucked over the poorest in our society.

 

As usual, at no point have I ever been critical of the left wing things New Labour did.

[ewerk 30159]

You continually criticised them as being too centrist for your liking.

[Rayvin 5150]

18 minutes ago, ewerk said:

You continually criticised them as being too centrist for your liking.

 

I have continually stated that I thought they were great when they were in power - as in, me at that time was a fully committed Blairite. Subsequently, I observed that they took insufficient action to address worrying underlying trends in society (benefit of hindsight though), but more than anything, observed that they backed austerity. That's why they lost me. I've said it a million times.

 

The problem with them now is that they're toxic to both sides. Which again, is why I have said before that the left needs a tilt at power to pull the centreground somewhere less right wing, before ideally, the centrists come back to power. Or alternatively, we see a rethought, radical centrism come forward and listen, addressing people's grievances with moderation. Instead, they've sat wringing their hands over 'how crazy everything has gotten', failing to take any responsibility for the patently obvious fact that, given we spent 30 years as centrists, that the current problem is squarely THEIR fault. It happened on THEIR watch. They are as intransigent and useless as Corbyn, but without any vision on top of that.

 

However, they back Remain - and that's all I care about right now.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Rayvin

[ewerk 30159]

Aye, it was Labour’s economic crash after all.

[Rayvin 5150]

They ceded the narrative and enabled the conditions. And I'm including the Tories under Cameron as 'centrists' as well since they and Labour were basically policy twins at that time.

[ewerk 30159]

It's utter nonsense to lump the two parties in together though. You know that Labour would never have been as harsh as the Tories when it came to austerity. They tried too hard to appear fiscally responsible imo but they would have taken a different approach to Cameron et al.

[Christmas Tree 4669]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

It's utter nonsense to lump the two parties in together though. You know that Labour would never have been as harsh as the Tories when it came to austerity. They tried too hard to appear fiscally responsible imo but they would have taken a different approach to Cameron et al.

 

Rewriting history?

 

March 2010

 

Alistair Darling admitted tonight that Labour's planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s

 

 

”The IFS used its post-budget analysis to spell out what was in store for Whitehall departments, but said there appeared to be only a modest difference between the plans of the two main parties.”

[ewerk 30159]

Yeah, it’s pretty much in the post you quoted if you read it properly. They wanted to be seen to be balancing the books as much as the Tories but in practice their cuts wouldn’t have been anywhere as savage. Labour simply don’t take the same joy in fucking over the most vulnerable in society as your lot do.

[Renton 21032]

3 hours ago, Rayvin said:

They ceded the narrative and enabled the conditions. And I'm including the Tories under Cameron as 'centrists' as well since they and Labour were basically policy twins at that time.

 

Labour made a strategic mistake, that's all. Mainly because Miliband was a piss poor leader and a coward. But to equate labour with the conservatives is fucking ridiculous. By rejecting centre left politics, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What you neeed to understand is that hard left parties will never be elected in this country. You might not have liked all that new labour stood for but above all they were a pragmatic party who made most people's lives better in a practical way. And fuck me, do we need some pragmatism now. 

[ewerk 30159]

 

Stupid cunt.

[Rayvin 5150]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Labour made a strategic mistake, that's all. Mainly because Miliband was a piss poor leader and a coward. But to equate labour with the conservatives is fucking ridiculous. By rejecting centre left politics, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What you neeed to understand is that hard left parties will never be elected in this country. You might not have liked all that new labour stood for but above all they were a pragmatic party who made most people's lives better in a practical way. And fuck me, do we need some pragmatism now. 

 

As i said, I'm with you. I'm doing so for selfish reasons and believe that I will be harming vulnerable people as a result, but i just dont care anymore.

 

What difference does it make to you why i choose it as long as i do.

 

I'm choosing to vote like a cunt. You vote centre because you think it's best for people. That's fine. I'll be voting centre for myself, because i dont believe it is for the best for most people.

 

Either way though, the effect is the same.

[ewerk 30159]

Is that your roundabout way of calling Renton a cunt?

[Dr Gloom 21756]

You may as well vote Tory if that’s how you feel 

[Renton 21032]

6 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

As i said, I'm with you. I'm doing so for selfish reasons and believe that I will be harming vulnerable people as a result, but i just dont care anymore.

 

What difference does it make to you why i choose it as long as i do.

 

I'm choosing to vote like a cunt. You vote centre because you think it's best for people. That's fine. I'll be voting centre for myself, because i dont believe it is for the best for most people.

 

Either way though, the effect is the same.

 

Tgis is getting silly. You want to help vulnerable people? Then a vote for a new Labour like Party does exactly that, don't make us post the "what have new Labour ever done for us" list again. You want to waste your vote on an enelectable party, thus letting the tory cunts in power for a generation and all that entails? Vote for Corbyn or just take a short cut and vote tory. 

 

I realise its hard to call someone naive without seeming patronising. But if you were around in the 80s with Foot as labour leader maybe you would get it. And he was a brilliant man compared to Corbyn. 

[Dr Gloom 21756]

CT trudged through the 80s. He remembers 

[Rayvin 5150]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

Is that your roundabout way of calling Renton a cunt?

 

No, because Renton votes for the centre because he believes it's the best thing for people. I can't do that because i dont believe it. I can only vote for it selfishly.

 

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

You may as well vote Tory if that’s how you feel 

 

The Tories aren't offering Remain. If they were, i would.

[Rayvin 5150]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Tgis is getting silly. You want to help vulnerable people? Then a vote for a new Labour like Party does exactly that, don't make us post the "what have new Labour ever done for us" list again. You want to waste your vote on an enelectable party, thus letting the tory cunts in power for a generation and all that entails? Vote for Corbyn or just take a short cut and vote tory. 

 

I realise its hard to call someone naive without seeming patronising. But if you were around in the 80s with Foot as labour leader maybe you would get it. And he was a brilliant man compared to Corbyn. 

 

You can call me naive all you want. The simple truth is this - I am not unaware of your arguments. I don't even dispute the factual accuracy. I just can't come to the same conclusion after considering additional information based on how New Labour has operated since 2010, and furthermore, what i have read from Monbiot about the damage it has unintentionally done by adhering to an ideological philosophy adopted by Thatcher.

 

You will not swing me on this argument by quoting facts that I already know, have considered, and have reached conclusions in full awareness of. All I am saying now, is that I don't care anymore because staying in the EU is worth more to me. On a personal level.

[Renton 21032]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

All I am saying now, is that I don't care anymore because staying in the EU is worth more to me.

 

Which makes your previous backing of Corbyn really quite baffling. You were told he was a Brexiter. You knew he was. And now are you surprised that given the chance he wants to enact Brexit? 

 

I have no words. 

[Rayvin 5150]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Which makes your previous backing of Corbyn really quite baffling. You were told he was a Brexiter. You knew he was. And now are you surprised that given the chance he wants to enact Brexit? 

 

I have no words. 

 

If you believe people occupy eternally fixed positions on things then i guess that would be surprising. I'm gonna say once and for all actually - I don't give a shit what you guys think of my opinions, and i dont give a shit if i look stupid sometimes. I'm very comfortable looking at information and changing my view based on it, and saying as much. As insecure as I am in most aspects of life, i dont need validation on the internet as someone who is always right. I just want to improve my own understanding of things.

 

That said, i think the following things were true for my previous position.

 

1 - i felt that there was no effective way for Labour to support a Remain movement without being crucified for it until recently.

 

2 - I was unaware of the sheer numbers of the membership that wanted to remain, and was dismayed that the leadership continues to ignore this. That was the moment Corbyn lost me as a sympathiser, a few weeks back.

 

3 - it is only over time, and as we draw nearer to Brexit, that I am more fully able to understand what it means. Mays deal being on the table is significant.

 

4 - I am now convinced that if Mays deal gets through, the Tories will get away with Brexit without terminal political blowback, and we'll be back to business as usual. At which point I am done with politics because it is a total and utter farce.

[ewerk 30159]

So you’ve caught up to where Renton and myself were a year ago? Maybe Christmas 19 you’ll be willingly supporting a centrist Labour leadership.  

[Renton 21032]

30 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If you believe people occupy eternally fixed positions on things then i guess that would be surprising. I'm gonna say once and for all actually - I don't give a shit what you guys think of my opinions, and i dont give a shit if i look stupid sometimes. I'm very comfortable looking at information and changing my view based on it, and saying as much. As insecure as I am in most aspects of life, i dont need validation on the internet as someone who is always right. I just want to improve my own understanding of things.

 

That said, i think the following things were true for my previous position.

 

1 - i felt that there was no effective way for Labour to support a Remain movement without being crucified for it until recently.

 

2 - I was unaware of the sheer numbers of the membership that wanted to remain, and was dismayed that the leadership continues to ignore this. That was the moment Corbyn lost me as a sympathiser, a few weeks back.

 

3 - it is only over time, and as we draw nearer to Brexit, that I am more fully able to understand what it means. Mays deal being on the table is significant.

 

4 - I am now convinced that if Mays deal gets through, the Tories will get away with Brexit without terminal political blowback, and we'll be back to business as usual. At which point I am done with politics because it is a total and utter farce.

 

Lighten up, it's Christmas, perhaps our last one with running water as Frankie Boyle recently pointed out.  Merry Christmas everyone! 

 

 

[Rayvin 5150]

17 minutes ago, ewerk said:

So you’ve caught up to where Renton and myself were a year ago? Maybe Christmas 19 you’ll be willingly supporting a centrist Labour leadership.  

 

If it gets Remain, sure. If we're out by then, i wont even be paying attention.