Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 5223]

Without Corbyn I'm not sure that shift happens. But I voted for him to force the discourse back to the left and he has. I need to be convinced that the centre understands this though.

[Rayvin 5223]

42 minutes ago, Renton said:

Things went to shit after the tories got in. What are your gripes before then? 

 

 

We've been through this man... New Labour was all well and good at the time but if Neoliberalism is what has brought us to this point then it has to be accepted that Blair encouraged this.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Rayvin

[Christmas Tree 4725]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

Without Corbyn I'm not sure that shift happens. But I voted for him to force the discourse back to the left and he has. I need to be convinced that the centre understands this though.

 

Do you actually understand what hard left is? It’s usually trying to squeeze too much out of business (kills business) and borrowing beyond the country’s means (bankrupts country).

 

Two old Marxists promising the younger generation an end to all our woes by re-nationalising a few things and giving middle class kids a free trip to university (paid for by working class) is laughable.

 

You can complain about our country but as a whole, we’ve done pretty well since the 50’s in so many areas of society. This has mostly been achieved by centrists governments. Sure we still have issues in society but overall we are punching above our weight for a tiny island.

 

I will quite happily vote for any government that comes out with realistic policies to make us better, but yesterdays policies paid for on credit will never make us better.

[Meenzer 15531]

14 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

You can complain about our country but as a whole, we’ve done pretty well since the 50’s in so many areas of society. This has mostly been achieved by centrists governments. Sure we still have issues in society but overall we are punching above our weight for a tiny island.

 

Which begs the question: what could possibly be the motivation for delivering a massive blow to that happy status quo by voting to leave the EU?

 

[NJS 4386]

I've heard of rewriting history but describing Thatcher and Cameron's idealogiical austerity as centrist makes The man in the high castle seem like just how it happened. 

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Do you actually understand what hard left is? It’s usually trying to squeeze too much out of business (kills business) and borrowing beyond the country’s means (bankrupts country).

 

Two old Marxists promising the younger generation an end to all our woes by re-nationalising a few things and giving middle class kids a free trip to university (paid for by working class) is laughable.

 

You can complain about our country but as a whole, we’ve done pretty well since the 50’s in so many areas of society. This has mostly been achieved by centrists governments. Sure we still have issues in society but overall we are punching above our weight for a tiny island.

 

I will quite happily vote for any government that comes out with realistic policies to make us better, but yesterdays policies paid for on credit will never make us better.

 

I do understand what the hard left is. You do not.

[Rayvin 5223]

10 minutes ago, NJS said:

I've heard of rewriting history but describing Thatcher and Cameron's idealogiical austerity as centrist makes The man in the high castle seem like just how it happened. 

 

 

 

Depends though. Centrist by historical standards, no way. Centrist by current standards... I mean yeah, I think it was. Both New Labour and the Tories backed it. If that isn't the current 'centre' I don't know what is. And since moderate left is now equivalent to Communism apparently, according to the oracle CT, who the fuck knows what centrist is these days.

 

A couple of years after No Deal, Centrist will probably mean advocating policies where only the poor are shot dead in the streets, and not the poor and middle class together.

[Renton 21627]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Depends though. Centrist by historical standards, no way. Centrist by current standards... I mean yeah, I think it was. Both New Labour and the Tories backed it. If that isn't the current 'centre' I don't know what is. And since moderate left is now equivalent to Communism apparently, according to the oracle CT, who the fuck knows what centrist is these days.

 

A couple of years after No Deal, Centrist will probably mean advocating policies where only the poor are shot dead in the streets, and not the poor and middle class together.

 

You see, I don't agree Labour ever backed austerity in the way cameron and Osbourne did. Two things. After the global crash of 2008, it made sense to cut public funding to services and the welfare state, to an extent. Given the "narrative" of the time, Miliband rightly or wrongly went along with it, to appease the right wing media. Does that mean he would have enacted the extreme austerity we saw? Not imo. But if you think there is no difference between the tories and New Labour, go ahead. 

 

Secondly, cutting back services should have also been balanced with Keynsian infrastructure spending btw, which never happened. Never mind. 

 

You make massive broad sweep strokes calling everything "neoliberalism", and proclaiming it as all the same. It's not. To me neoliberalism means market capitalism, which really is the basis of western society. Scandinavian countries are neoliberal. There is nothing stopping us being having  sound market capitalist structure but also proper taxation and social welfare. The alternative is communism, which I'm personally not keen on. 

[Renton 21627]

22 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Depends though. Centrist by historical standards, no way. Centrist by current standards... I mean yeah, I think it was. Both New Labour and the Tories backed it. If that isn't the current 'centre' I don't know what is. And since moderate left is now equivalent to Communism apparently, according to the oracle CT, who the fuck knows what centrist is these days.

 

A couple of years after No Deal, Centrist will probably mean advocating policies where only the poor are shot dead in the streets, and not the poor and middle class together.

 

Oh, btw, by true historical standards ( before the Labour movement), this country is extreme to the left of what it was. I agree there is a rightwards drift currently though. 

[Monkeys Fist 42458]

 

[ewerk 30616]

Disturbing.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

3 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Do you actually understand what hard left is? It’s usually trying to squeeze too much out of business (kills business) and borrowing beyond the country’s means (bankrupts country).

 

Two old Marxists promising the younger generation an end to all our woes by re-nationalising a few things and giving middle class kids a free trip to university (paid for by working class) is laughable.

 

You can complain about our country but as a whole, we’ve done pretty well since the 50’s in so many areas of society. This has mostly been achieved by centrists governments. Sure we still have issues in society but overall we are punching above our weight for a tiny island.

 

I will quite happily vote for any government that comes out with realistic policies to make us better, but yesterdays policies paid for on credit will never make us better.

If it’s so laughable why did you vote for it?

[Alex 35083]

6 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

Only centrists can ever run the country well. It’s about making sensible realistic policy decisions using a very limited pot of money and an ever increasing set of demands.

 

To far right and it’s dog eat dog, too far left and it’s unicorn world.

 

The vast majority of MP’s on all sides understand this to be true.

Can you post that again but just stick a few more cliches in this time? 

[Monkeys Fist 42458]

41 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Disturbing.

Yeah, but Blue Passportses. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

16 hours ago, Meenzer said:

 

Which begs the question: what could possibly be the motivation for delivering a massive blow to that happy status quo by voting to leave the EU?

 

 

Because the government’s we elect can then have full autonomy to do whatever they like in the country’s interests whether that’s state aid, vat rates, tarrifs etc.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

15 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

I do understand what the hard left is. You do not.

 

I get the impression you are more guided by the headline fairytale stuff that comes out of Corbyn etc. Pull back the curtain and read some of the stuff from the younger proper hard left ( @graceblekeley )  and it’s a much different picture.

 

TBF, A lot of what she says makes good sense, but at least she’s honest. EG Adamant that the only way a socialist government can truly succeed is outside the EU. ( Corbyns view to if only he had the integrity to say so).

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I wait for a genuine hard left politician to convince me otherwise, but socialism is like a pair of flares. Every 30 years the younger generation forgets what an absolute disaster they are and they become hip for a little while.

[ewerk 30616]

16 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Because the government’s we elect can then have full autonomy to do whatever they like in the country’s interests whether that’s state aid, vat rates, tarrifs etc.

Which elements of state aid, VAT rates and tariffs do you think we need to change?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

Which elements of state aid, VAT rates and tariffs do you think we need to change?

 

Well that’s really upto any future Labour or Conservative Government. They would have the freedom to do what they thought was right. EG reducing VAT to 0 on domestic fuel.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Will the vote go ahead? Cabinet advised a special conference call will take place in next 15 mins.

[Meenzer 15531]

"I voted to set fire to everything because I'm so passionate about it but I don't mind what a future government does with the ashes"

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

16 hours ago, Renton said:

 

You see, I don't agree Labour ever backed austerity in the way cameron and Osbourne did. Two things. After the global crash of 2008, it made sense to cut public funding to services and the welfare state, to an extent. Given the "narrative" of the time, Miliband rightly or wrongly went along with it, to appease the right wing media. Does that mean he would have enacted the extreme austerity we saw? Not imo. But if you think there is no difference between the tories and New Labour, go ahead. 

 

Secondly, cutting back services should have also been balanced with Keynsian infrastructure spending btw, which never happened. Never mind. 

 

You make massive broad sweep strokes calling everything "neoliberalism", and proclaiming it as all the same. It's not. To me neoliberalism means market capitalism, which really is the basis of western society. Scandinavian countries are neoliberal. There is nothing stopping us being having  sound market capitalist structure but also proper taxation and social welfare. The alternative is communism, which I'm personally not keen on. 

 

Oh come on man, we've been round the houses on this so many times that i'm actually certain you've agreed eith me previously on both the austerity point and on New Labour being neoliberal. 

 

I'm not saying that they were evil, but i am convinced, latterly, given the way the world went, that their inaction on a number of social fronts that would have been addressed by a more progressive left wing government - immigrant integration programs, more progressive taxation etc - that would have helped to fend off the nightmare we are currently living.

 

Having said that, maybe it would have made no difference. And i certainly thought at the time that New Labour was as close to perfect as I was ever going to see from a government. Which remains true to this day actually. But still, they weren't as socially focused as Scandinavian countries were they?

 

As for austerity, you're right about why Miliband did it but it's no fucking excuse. Not for what happened. It's unforgivable IMO. He was supposed to fight against stupid, ideologically driven financial drivel from the Tories and he enabled it almost to the extent Clegg did. I recall the Tories claiming Labour would have cut more, not that I remember how true that was. No one is going to convince me austerity was necessary because it wasn't. For all you can talk about Keynesian stimuli, did Labour say anything of the sort at the time?

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Well that’s really upto any future Labour or Conservative Government. They would have the freedom to do what they thought was right. EG reducing VAT to 0 on domestic fuel.

Do you think we should put 0% VAT on fuel? Can you name a single comparable country anywhere in the world that doesn't tax domestic fuel? 

 

I think it was Davis who was asked to name a single regulation that disadvantaged a UK citizen. He couldn't, but it was the "principle" that mattered, apparently. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Oh come on man, we've been round the houses on this so many times that i'm actually certain you've agreed eith me previously on both the austerity point and on New Labour being neoliberal. 

 

I'm not saying that they were evil, but i am convinced, latterly, given the way the world went, that their inaction on a number of social fronts that would have been addressed by a more progressive left wing government - immigrant integration programs, more progressive taxation etc - that would have helped to fend off the nightmare we are currently living.

 

Having said that, maybe it would have made no difference. And i certainly thought at the time that New Labour was as close to perfect as I was ever going to see from a government. Which remains true to this day actually. But still, they weren't as socially focused as Scandinavian countries were they?

 

As for austerity, you're right about why Miliband did it but it's no fucking excuse. Not for what happened. It's unforgivable IMO. He was supposed to fight against stupid, ideologically driven financial drivel from the Tories and he enabled it almost to the extent Clegg did. I recall the Tories claiming Labour would have cut more, not that I remember how true that was. No one is going to convince me austerity was necessary because it wasn't. For all you can talk about Keynesian stimuli, did Labour say anything of the sort at the time?

 

 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Do you think we should put 0% VAT on fuel? Can you name a single comparable country anywhere in the world that doesn't tax domestic fuel? 

 

 

 

100% YES. We shouldn’t tax people to keep warm.