Europe --- In or Out

[Alex 35083]

2 hours ago, wykikitoon said:

 

 

Interesting thread of tweets

Articulates well what I’ve been trying to say about the Beeb for a while. The point about their idea of balance is spot on too. 

[Renton 21627]

40 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

Obviously don't bother reading the piece but this bit is incredible: 'If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it.'

The man in charge of Brexit negotiations for two years still doesn't know that without a deal there is no transition period.

 

Incredible. Thick as pigshit. Makes CT look knowledgeable. 

[ewerk 30616]

Well the fat little mackem is as much of a coward, just like Davis he runs away when actually asked to put something down in writing.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

4 hours ago, ewerk said:

Well the fat little mackem is as much of a coward, just like Davis he runs away when actually asked to put something down in writing.

 

 Fuck off you bore. You asked the same question last week and I told the PM was on her feet in the commons confirming we could do FTA’s. She did the same again at the CBI conference today.

 

Pay a bit more attention to the news and you may not need to ask as many questions.

[ewerk 30616]

So tell me, when we sit down to do a deal with Australia what do we offer them? We can’t vary our tariffs from those set by the EU so on what basis can we deal with them?

[Ayatollah Hermione 13869]

Just back from Krakow and one bar had a shot called "BREXIT" and it was fucking rancid. Made two of us hoy up and tasted like some radge herbal vodka, brewed in a serial killer's bath. So, it was perfectly named.

 

Just thought I'd bring it up

[Renton 21627]

3 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 Fuck off you bore. You asked the same question last week and I told the PM was on her feet in the commons confirming we could do FTA’s. She did the same again at the CBI conference today.

 

Pay a bit more attention to the news and you may not need to ask as many questions.

We can't make any trade deals while we are in transition or tied  inyo the backstop. And the trouble is, there is no plausible mechanism of leaving the backstop because of NI. Your magical technological solutions wont work now and wont work in 10 years time. What tyoe of idiot takes what May says seriously anyway?

 

And even if we could, please explain to me why we would want to? We already have FTAs with the large majority of wealthy countries  in the world via the EU. The US perhaps being the exception, but you were vehemently against TTIP citing this as a reason to leave the EU, remember? The countries the EU hasn't got a deal with are all poor so what types of deal do you envisage? The combined GDP of the continent of Africa is less than Germany. The mean GDP per capita of the commonwealth is TEN times less than the EU. So come on, tell me more about these fantastic deals. 

[RobinRobin 11280]

15 hours ago, Renton said:

Meanwhile, Nadibe Dorries is upset because we won't have any MEPs after we Brexit!

That is probably the only benefit of Brexit - ensuring that the twat Farage loses his huge salary and other perks!

[RobinRobin 11280]

13 hours ago, ewerk said:

Obviously don't bother reading the piece but this bit is incredible: 'If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it.'

The man in charge of Brexit negotiations for two years still doesn't know that without a deal there is no transition period.

Politician not knowing what he is talking about shocker  

[ewerk 30616]

10 hours ago, Renton said:

We can't make any trade deals while we are in transition or tied  inyo the backstop. And the trouble is, there is no plausible mechanism of leaving the backstop because of NI. Your magical technological solutions wont work now and wont work in 10 years time. What tyoe of idiot takes what May says seriously anyway?

 

And even if we could, please explain to me why we would want to? We already have FTAs with the large majority of wealthy countries  in the world via the EU. The US perhaps being the exception, but you were vehemently against TTIP citing this as a reason to leave the EU, remember? The countries the EU hasn't got a deal with are all poor so what types of deal do you envisage? The combined GDP of the continent of Africa is less than Germany. The mean GDP per capita of the commonwealth is TEN times less than the EU. So come on, tell me more about these fantastic deals. 

We can technically strike trade deals during transition, however, they won't be able to take effect until after transition. The problem is we won't know what our future relationship will be with the EU until the end of the transition period. Plus the backstop is going to be the minimal level our of future trading arrangement so any trade deal with another country won't allow us to amend the tariffs set by the EU, therefore taking away 90% of our leverage. The other 10% of leverage is the quality of goods we'll accept from third countries. The issue here being that any acceptance of goods that don't meet EU standards will make frictionless trade with the EU impossible as they will have to implement checks on the border.

As for the FTA's we have via the EU, they all end in March 2019. After that any of these third countries are under no obligation to honour the existing terms of our deal with the EU. Furthermore, any new trade deals between the EU and third countries will not include the UK so we will not necessarily benefit from any of those.

The real issue is that we're caught in the backstop. We're tied to the EU Customs union for goods but have no guaranteed access to the single market. That means on day 1 they can demand any amount they want from us for access knowing that we're tied to the CU so can't do any meaningful trade deals of our own so they are pretty much our only option for trade. This deal leaves us entirely beholden to them and they know it. 

[ewerk 30616]

12 hours ago, ewerk said:

So tell me, when we sit down to do a deal with Australia what do we offer them? We can’t vary our tariffs from those set by the EU so on what basis can we deal with them?

Come on, Tubs. You've had 12 hours to think of an answer, let's hear it.

[Gemmill 44894]

 

[Renton 21627]

35 minutes ago, ewerk said:

We can technically strike trade deals during transition, however, they won't be able to take effect until after transition. The problem is we won't know what our future relationship will be with the EU until the end of the transition period. Plus the backstop is going to be the minimal level our of future trading arrangement so any trade deal with another country won't allow us to amend the tariffs set by the EU, therefore taking away 90% of our leverage. The other 10% of leverage is the quality of goods we'll accept from third countries. The issue here being that any acceptance of goods that don't meet EU standards will make frictionless trade with the EU possible as they will have to implement checks on the border.

As for the FTA's we have via the EU, they all end in March 2019. After that any of these third countries are under no obligation to honour the existing terms of our deal with the EU. Furthermore, any new trade deals between the EU and third countries will not include the UK so we will not necessarily benefit from any of those.

The real issue is that we're caught in the backstop. We're tied to the EU Customs union for goods but have no guaranteed access to the single market. That means on day 1 they can demand any amount they want from us for access knowing that we're tied to the CU so can't do any meaningful trade deals of our own so they are pretty much our only option for trade. This deal leaves us entirely beholden to them and they know it. 

 

Well when you put it like that..... it's worse than I thought! Fucking hell, if we had gone for an EFTA solution at the start a lot of these problems could have been circumvented. But no, May and her fucking red lines are tangled around our throat, throttling the life out of this country. All just to stop FoM when,  if Brexiters were honest, the real issue is non-EU immigration.

 

Still, I'm sure Dr Fox will have his 40 cracking deals any day now. 

[ewerk 30616]

It truly is the worst of all worlds and will really become apparent when trade negotiations begin. It is the first step to BRINO but obviously we won't benefit from EU projects, FoM or any representation.

The only way it could have been made any better would be for GB to have the unilateral option to leave the backstop but that would have been even more politically unpalatable. Though I think the EU would be prepared to renegotiate that element if asked to.

Edited November 20, 2018 by ewerk

[Meenzer 15531]

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how grim May's "jumping the queue" rhetoric is, by the way? It'll go largely unnoticed in the broader clusterfuck of Brexit but it says absolutely everything about the woman.

[Renton 21627]

9 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how grim May's "jumping the queue" rhetoric is, by the way? It'll go largely unnoticed in the broader clusterfuck of Brexit but it says absolutely everything about the woman.

 

Yeah, every time I begin to feel a bit of sympathy for her she's comes out with this vile rhetoric to pander to CT and the DM crowd. She"s a racist arsehole little Englander, end of. 

[ewerk 30616]

She really, really hates immigrants.  TBF she's using the biggest tool she can use to get the gammons to back her deal, hoping they won't notice that it'll be Apu coming into the country rather Piotr. 

It's the lowest possible argument and has been used by politicians for years.

 

[Alex 35083]

6 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

Can we take a moment to appreciate just how grim May's "jumping the queue" rhetoric is, by the way? It'll go largely unnoticed in the broader clusterfuck of Brexit but it says absolutely everything about the woman.

Also, her government has made it increasingly difficult for non-EU nationals / non-UK citizens to become employed in the UK. As well as sponsoring individuals you now need to demonstrate before employing people from outside the EU that you’ve advertised the job for a set amount of time. Also you need to show that no one (not requiring sponsorship but suitable for the job) was passed over before offerythe job to a non EU / UK citizen. So, to cut a long story short, the UK government is basically blaming the EU once again and promising to remedy a situation they caused with their own unilateral policy. Even better when you think they’d only done it in the first place to appease leave voters who don’t like brown people. Brexit in microcosm 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

She really, really hates immigrants.  TBF she's using the biggest tool she can use to get the gammons to back her deal, hoping they won't notice that it'll be Apu coming into the country rather Piotr. 

It's the lowest possible argument and has been used by politicians for years.

 

 

Are you saying that to be against high levels of immigration is to be racist? It’s not like, it’s nationalist not racist.

[ewerk 30616]

Higher levels of immigration than a country can cope is isn't acceptable. But as you continually crow about, our levels of unemployment are quite low at the moment.

So what's your beef with current levels of immigration?

[ewerk 30616]

Also, have you got that trade negotiation pitch ready yet?

[Rayvin 5223]

42 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Higher levels of immigration than a country can cope is isn't acceptable. But as you continually crow about, our levels of unemployment are quite low at the moment.

So what's your beef with current levels of immigration?

 

I honestly think we have to back away from this argument - and by 'we', I mean the rational people in society. Whether we're right in our views on it or not, we've clearly lost the argument for now at least. Continuing to force this issue (and I do think that there are some valid concerns from 'the other side' on this, especially concerning the government's ongoing failure to integrate people into society, which appears to consist of relying on the children of immigrants to be 'normalised' by TV and school) is only making the centre look apathetic to the concerns of the lower middle and working classes, and they no longer trust the establishment voices above the right wing outlets and the crazies.

 

I wish the EU itself would understand that immigration has just been too much for some people, and that the chance they had to shape the narrative around it has been lost. There's too much at stake across Europe now with the rise of the far right everywhere, and the longer they fail to address it, the harder they'll have to be when they finally do act on it.

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Are you saying that to be against high levels of immigration is to be racist? It’s not like, it’s nationalist not racist.

 

Nationalism and racism or xenophobia are cousins. Trust you to lap up May's dog whistles. I bet you applauded "citizen of nowhere" and the "Go home" van she commissioned when she was home secretary as well.

 

To call EU citizens, who have come here under reciprocal FoM rules and have settled here, and have contributed to our tax, pensions, and society "queue jumpers" is beyond reprehensible. It's a mark of how low the Tory party has sunk that this can be said without provoking outrage that should lead to the her resignation. Not only that, but how do you think such comments will be perceived in the EU, you know, that huge trading block we need to be on good terms with? Is it helpful?

 

Racist, xenophobic, or nationalist. Different parts of the same right wing spectrum that's destroying our country. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Nationalism and racism or xenophobia are cousins. Trust you to lap up May's dog whistles. I bet you applauded "citizen of nowhere" and the "Go home" van she commissioned when she was home secretary as well.

 

To call EU citizens, who have come here under reciprocal FoM rules have settled here, and have contributed to our tax, pensions, and society "queue jumpers" is beyond reprehensible. It's a mark of how low the Tory party has sunk that this can be said without provoking outrage that should lead to the her resignation. Not only that, but how do you think such comments will be perceived in the EU, you know, that huge trading block we need to be on good terms with? Is it helpful. 

 

Racist, xenophobic, or nationalist. Different parts of the same right wing spectrum that's destroying our country. 

 

Aye but nationalism has been intelligently wielded by the far right with the argument that a 'nationalist' can be someone of any colour, who wants what is best for the country. Unlike a racist.

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I wish the EU itself would understand that immigration has just been too much for some people,

 

Really. Then explain why, with some noticeable exceptions, areas with high EU immigration voted Remain and areas with virtually none, like Sunderland, voted Leave. This proves the issue is a scape goat to appeal to certain individuals baser nature. Tubs himself had to invent anecdotes about polish people sleeping 10 to a room stealing jobs in the ship yards. How do you counter that? Expose the lie or juat shuffle looking at your feet?