Europe --- In or Out

[PaddockLad 17274]

32 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

I can't imagine what need you would have for lower tuition fees.

 

Hes got 17 kids and 30 odd grandchildren. Bought into Jezza’s youth bribe. South Tyneside for you 

[Alex 35083]

8 hours ago, Meenzer said:

So now Johnson is saying we had sovereignty within the EU after all. Why, it's almost as if.......

 

 

Losing the sovereignty we weren’t meant to have in the first place?

[ewerk 30616]

8 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Without having seen the deal, you've got a UK wide backstop. You were right on that. We've also got a NI specific backstop, you were wrong on that.

So 50%, it's better than you're usual success rate.

Edited November 14, 2018 by ewerk

[ewerk 30616]

 

 

[Renton 21627]

So is this the famous "cracking deal"? 

 

Fucking hell CT, going through all this to get something demonstrably worse than we had, much worse in fact, and genuine loss of sovereignty thrown in.

 

Still, if this deal does somehow get though parliament it should keep Nissan open for a few years. Well done. Cracking! BAMFU. 

[ewerk 30616]

CT's main reason for leaving the EU was to do new trade deals with the rest of the world, this deal severely curtails our ability to do just that. 'Cracking'.

[Meenzer 15531]

Whatever Rees-Mogg and his ilk might say, realistically the quiet majority of leavers just want to be "out", symbolically, regardless of what it actually entails and even if it's basically the status quo but less good. Just so long as we're not flying that flag and we feel  like we've made a difference. So I can see the logic of pursuing something like this as the least worst option that won't end in open revolt.

 

It's still shite, mind, but it makes sense in the specific set of circumstances we've allowed ourselves to get into.

[Rayvin 5223]

What happens when it doesn't get through parliament?

[ewerk 30616]

Well that's when a People's Vote becomes a realistic option. Of course Labour will push for a GE but I can't see that happening. So assuming that parliament can't agree a collective vision for the deal then a PV is pretty much the only option IMO.

[Renton 21627]

So from what I can tell, this is complete BINO, including tying the UK to the EU social chapter. And even allows EU access to our fishing waters. A worse deal than Norway even, just to have some nominal control on FoM we already had.

 

It confirms a few things. First, the EU have played a blinder, and have us exactly where they want us, potentially in perpetuity. Second, this could only happen because as we thought we have no leverage. And third, no deal is a complete bluff which no PM could sanction. What a pyhrric victory this has been for Leave. Pathetic. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Well that's when a People's Vote becomes a realistic option. Of course Labour will push for a GE but I can't see that happening. So assuming that parliament can't agree a collective vision for the deal then a PV is pretty much the only option IMO.

 

Surely this fails Labour's 6 tests or whatever it was. And the Tories are pulling it apart as well. It'll never get through on that basis...

[ewerk 30616]

I don't think fishing rights are mentioned in the agreement, that could be something that changes in the final version.

[ewerk 30616]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Surely this fails Labour's 6 tests or whatever it was. And the Tories are pulling it apart as well. It'll never get through on that basis...

Does it fail their six tests?

Quote

 

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

 

It is quite possible that it could be so close to BRINO that it gives Corbyn enough wiggle room to claim that it actually fulfils those requirements.

[Renton 21627]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I don't think fishing rights are mentioned in the agreement, that could be something that changes in the final version.

 Sabine Weyand mentioned that the EU would have to retain access to fishing grounds, I've heard it elsewhere as well. I think May has capitulated on everything tbh. Gammons are going to turn into crispy bacon. 

[Rayvin 5223]

6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Does it fail their six tests?

It is quite possible that it could be so close to BRINO that it gives Corbyn enough wiggle room to claim that it actually fulfils those requirements.

 

But why would he do that and make the government look like heroes?

[Renton 21627]

I'll be honest and say if the deal is as "bad" as has been leaked, I'd vote for it to avoid the no deal possibility. Tbf, this was predicted by several of us some time ago. I mean staying in the SM and CU, just calling them something different. Ultimately it makes no sense, but that's Brexit for you. 

 

 

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

But why would he do that and make the government look like heroes?

To stop the destruction of the country, or is that too principled for him? 

[Rayvin 5223]

Yeah it does sound like that, but we have the ability to torpedo the whole thing if it doesn't get through Parliament.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

To stop the destruction of the country, or is that too principled for him? 

 

If he does that, he's the only principled person in the whole sorry affair. And I thought the consensus on here now was that he isn't principled at all.

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

I'll be honest and say if the deal is as "bad" as has been leaked, I'd vote for it to avoid the no deal possibility. Tbf, this was predicted by several of us some time ago. I mean staying in the SM and CU, just calling them something different. Ultimately it makes no sense, but that's Brexit for you. 

 

 

 

On 08/12/2017 at 13:14, Rayvin said:

 

That sure as fuck doesn't look like where we're heading CT. It looks like we're going to be sold some manner of new initiative, knowing the Tories quite possible called something like "The Market Single and the Union of Customs" which will be totally different to the Single Market and Customs Union *cough* but will allow us to do everything as we had done previously, somehow. While throwing away all decision making powers. And the only beneficiary of this in any real sense, will be the Tory party.

[ewerk 30616]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

But why would he do that and make the government look like heroes?

Because he's a leaver? On the other hand he won't be happy about them signing up to state aid rules.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

Because he's a leaver? On the other hand he won't be happy about them signing up to state aid rules.

 

But he would be shoring up the Tories. Can he countenance that? I guess it depends whether leaving the EU is more important to him than taking the Tories out.

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If he does that, he's the only principled person in the whole sorry affair. And I thought the consensus on here now was that he isn't principled at all.

He's faux-princpled. Tbh we know he's a hard Brexiteer so he probably will whip i5 down. How many Labour MPs will rebel though? 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

He's faux-princpled. Tbh we know he's a hard Brexiteer so he probably will whip i5 down. How many Labour MPs will rebel though? 

 

Is this deal good enough that we should back it then? I mean what's happening to freedom of movement? Is that staying?

[ewerk 30616]

What is it with cunts and all the war/colonial comparisons? And wasn't he arguing for a Norway deal before the referendum?