Europe --- In or Out

[Christmas Tree 4725]

25 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Yes, they have, so they were not lies, were they? They were predictions which were mainly correct so far. Furthermore, we haven't yet brexited yet have we? It's difficult to model the uncertainty caused by Brexit while we are in the A50 period. Much easier to model the effects of being out because there are factual inputs to the model; the vast majority of models refer to post-Brexit, not post-referendum, for this reason. Like Hammond said, I can't tell you the weather next week but I can tell you it's winter in January.

 

In contrast Leave were a collection of lies, many of which were demonstrably wrong at the time. The money on the bus and the imminent accession of Turkey were obvious lies. And their cake and unicorn predictions? I think you must be the only person in the UK who buys this. Except you don't really, do you? Because one thing you have demonstrated time and time agsin is that you yourself are a compulsive liar. 

 

 Jesus

[The Fish 10857]

Not a great rebuttal CT, but in line with your persona on here. 

[ewerk 30616]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

You still haven’t explained how your version of a customs union allows us to alter our trade tariffs.

 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

50 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

 I love the way that sometimes I get asked questions as though I am in Brussels doing the negogiations. I am but a jolly taxi driver with an interest in politics

 

Political debate is good, but you should make allowances for the above. I do for all of you

 

Anyway, a year ago I suggested to you that this would be resolved by a bespoke Customs Union in the way Turkey has a bespoke Customs Union. 

 

You all laughed

 

Here we are a year later discussing a bespoke Customs Union.

 

Obviously none of us are privy to the discussions that are taking place about the future trading relationship.

 

But given the current talk of the bespoke Customs Union, the insistence of May that we want to do free trade deals and the information we know about the U.K. suggesting we can collect tarrifs on behalf of the EU, you can sort of see where this could end up.

 

The biggest difficulty with this negotiation is not the details, as daft as that sounds, but the government’s majority.  

[Alex 35083]

Jolly  

[Isegrim 9777]

4 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 But the remain side lies have come to pass, claims by the leave side have not as we are still in negogiations. The only deal currently being discussed by the U.K. / EU includes everything I wanted from Brexit.

 

That wasn’t my point. Those are just predictions and intentions as well.

 

 I am about lies and false facts regarding how the EU works, costs, current plans etc. A lot was stated that simply wasn’t true just to stir hatred towards the institutions as well as foreigners. It was the real project fear.

[ewerk 30616]

2 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

 I love the way that sometimes I get asked questions as though I am in Brussels doing the negogiations. I am but a jolly taxi driver with an interest in politics

 

Political debate is good, but you should make allowances for the above. I do for all of you

 

Anyway, a year ago I suggested to you that this would be resolved by a bespoke Customs Union in the way Turkey has a bespoke Customs Union. 

 

You all laughed

 

Here we are a year later discussing a bespoke Customs Union.

 

Obviously none of us are privy to the discussions that are taking place about the future trading relationship.

 

But given the current talk of the bespoke Customs Union, the insistence of May that we want to do free trade deals and the information we know about the U.K. suggesting we can collect tarrifs on behalf of the EU, you can sort of see where this could end up.

 

The biggest difficulty with this negotiation is not the details, as daft as that sounds, but the government’s majority.  

You mean the plans for the U.K. to collect tariffs that has been rejected by the EU? You can’t even explain your own plan, you utter fraud.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

47 minutes ago, ewerk said:

You mean the plans for the U.K. to collect tariffs that has been rejected by the EU? You can’t even explain your own plan, you utter fraud.

 

Well I explained it to you last year and again today and no doubt again when it’s going through.

[ewerk 30616]

What May is proposing is nothing like the Turkey CU. It’s nothing like any CU.

[Renton 21627]

3 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

The biggest difficulty with this negotiation is not the details, as daft as that sounds, but the government’s majority.  

 

Well, the biggest problem is the border in NI, which I told you soon after the GE was a circle that couldn't be squared because of the reliance on the DUP. Nothing has changed, nothing. Which is why the idiot government you support is in danger of crashing out without a deal. And the more I hear from Raab, the more I fear that is his intention.

 

Sort this out-of you can CT. Oh, and btw, it is the SINGLE MARKET that is the most important issue, for the 100th time.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Renton

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Well I explained it to you last year and again today and no doubt again when it’s going through.

How about you go back to basics? What do you think a customs union is? 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Well, the biggest problem is the border in NI, which I told you soon after the GE was a circle that couldn't be squared because of the reliance on the DUP. Nothing has changed, nothing. Which is why the idiot government you support is in danger of crashing out without a deal. And the more I hear from Raab, the more I fear that is his intention.

 

Sort this out-of you can CT. Oh, and btw, it is the SINGLE MARKET that is the most important issue, for the 100th time.

 

 

Ofcourse it can be squared, chequers sorts it out. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

How about you go back to basics? What do you think a customs union is? 

 

No thanks

[ewerk 30616]

Come on, you’ve had two days now to google what a customs union is.

[Isegrim 9777]

8 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Ofcourse it can be squared, chequers sorts it out. 

The Chequers that is in important parts not acceptable to the EU?

[Renton 21627]

Fuck me, CT must have missed the outcome of Salzburg, not to mention the fact that it's also been rejected by every other fucker.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

I know you lads struggle with this but it’s a NEGOTIATION!!!!

 

Both sides have said various outcomes are not acceptable but both sides will eventually agree, probably as usual at the last minute.

 

Its likely the WA will be done shortly and then we’ll have a 2 or 3 year transition to the future relationship.

 

But to be honest, the make up of Parliament means all sorts of scenarios from no deal to remaining could still come to pass.

 

 

[Isegrim 9777]

45 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I know you lads struggle with this but it’s a NEGOTIATION!!!!

 

Both sides have said various outcomes are not acceptable but both sides will eventually agree, probably as usual at the last minute.

 

Its likely the WA will be done shortly and then we’ll have a 2 or 3 year transition to the future relationship.

 

But to be honest, the make up of Parliament means all sorts of scenarios from no deal to remaining could still come to pass.

 

 

Coming from the one who claims that the Chequers deal is offering everything he wants and treating it as something that’s been accepted or will be accepted that’s a bit rich.

 

There are things in the “deal” that can’t get accepted as it doesn’t fit with principles of the EU that are not up for negotiations because otherwise it would in fact be the end of the EU because others would start cherrypicking and cakemunching as well.

[Alex 35083]

He’s thick, man 

[Renton 21627]

3 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I know you lads struggle with this but it’s a NEGOTIATION!!!!

 

Both sides have said various outcomes are not acceptable but both sides will eventually agree, probably as usual at the last minute.

 

Its likely the WA will be done shortly and then we’ll have a 2 or 3 year transition to the future relationship.

 

But to be honest, the make up of Parliament means all sorts of scenarios from no deal to remaining could still come to pass.

 

 

It's not a negotiation. The EU will never compromise the single market, which is what Chequers means. They can't. I'm going to show you this yet again in the forlorn hope you have enough grey matter to understand. 

 

We have to pick a model and negotiate from there, this has always been the case and the EU have never and will never deviate from this. Norway is soft, Switzerland unfeasible, turkey and Ukraine horrible, and Canada and South Korea are hard. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

3 hours ago, Isegrim said:

Coming from the one who claims that the Chequers deal is offering everything he wants and treating it as something that’s been accepted or will be accepted that’s a bit rich.

 

There are things in the “deal” that can’t get accepted as it doesn’t fit with principles of the EU that are not up for negotiations because otherwise it would in fact be the end of the EU because others would start cherrypicking and cakemunching as well.

 

Money talks

[Christmas Tree 4725]

41 minutes ago, Renton said:

It's not a negotiation. The EU will never compromise the single market, which is what Chequers means. They can't. I'm going to show you this yet again in the forlorn hope you have enough grey matter to understand. 

 

We have to pick a model and negotiate from there, this has always been the case and the EU have never and will never deviate from this. Norway is soft, Switzerland unfeasible, turkey and Ukraine horrible, and Canada and South Korea are hard. 

 

You realise that all that chart does (as I have told you before), is show that when the need arises, a model is created.

[Renton 21627]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

 

You realise that all that chart does (as I have told you before), is show that when the need arises, a model is created.

 

Erm no, it doesn't. It shows you what's available to a country dependent on the red lines they have. The EU's 4 pillars are immutable and can't be changed. Its an existential issue for the EU which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain. 

 

So, that leaves us with either May rubbing out her red lines, and going for a Norway type deal, or her sticking to them, and getting Canada. She can't do the former because of the eurosceptic nutters. Why hasn't she just gone for Canada then? Well, because unlike you, she knows the trade frictions that would cause would devastate our industry and farming, and likely cause conflict in NI. 

 

Incidentally, you say you have read the pre-referendum part of this thread. Did you notice that everyone, including you, assumed that Brexit meant staying in the EEA (SM)? Interesting how the far right have twisted the narrative to say all leavers knew that it meant leaving the SM and CU. A complete rewrite of history which you have fallen for hook, line and sinker.

[Isegrim 9777]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Money talks

Yes, and the integrity of the single market and customs union is not only politically but also economically more important than business with the UK.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

Erm no, it doesn't. It shows you what's available to a country dependent on the red lines they have. The EU's 4 pillars are immutable and can't be changed. Its an existential issue for the EU which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain. 

 

So, that leaves us with either May rubbing out her red lines, and going for a Norway type deal, or her sticking to them, and getting Canada. She can't do the former because of the eurosceptic nutters. Why hasn't she just gone for Canada then? Well, because unlike you, she knows the trade frictions that would cause would devastate our industry and farming, and likely cause conflict in NI. 

 

Incidentally, you say you have read the pre-referendum part of this thread. Did you notice that everyone, including you, assumed that Brexit meant staying in the EEA (SM)? Interesting how the far right have twisted the narrative to say all leavers knew that it meant leaving the SM and CU. A complete rewrite of history which you have fallen for hook, line and sinker.

 

It shows their red lines have changed numerous times to suit different situations. I love also how you are so adamant that their negotiating position is unmovable but ours is not. Thank god your not batting for us.

 

As for the Canada option I doubt that would lead to the drama you suggest or a return to terrorism in NI. Time has moved on and I doubt the odd camera (there all over already), would make a difference. And let’s not forget that in the event of no deal, The Irish Government and the U.K. have all said that they won’t put up a hard border.

 

I’m not sure anyone on here actually mentioned the Irish border pre vote. If they did, I certainly don’t recall anyone making it a massive issue.

 

As for your last paragraph, typical Renton bollocks. I showed you yesterday that even a week before the vote, Rayvin and paddocklad could see both sides of the argument.

 

I certainly didn’t vote for Brexit thinking it would mean no trade deals or continued with free movement.