Christmas Tree 4685 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Alex said: The inference being you think 'no deal' is good Well for 100% clarity, I definitley don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: so it’s all a cunning plan. Really, yesterday was a bad day for remainers. Basically NI border is basically being kicked into next year for a giant game of chicken. No deal is very much still alive and kicking. No deal isn't an option. As Renton said, this is perfect for the EU. It leaves us with two options. SM and CU or dividing GB and NI. Both options are much much worse for us than our current situation. It's more evidence that Brexit is a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: No deal isn't an option. As Renton said, this is perfect for the EU. It leaves us with two options. SM and CU or dividing GB and NI. Both options are much much worse for us than our current situation. It's more evidence that Brexit is a disaster. There is no way we're dividing GB and NI. Surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4685 Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, ewerk said: It has become legislation. That was the point of the agreement of the legal text. I did not say it would have effect in law or be legally binding before the withdrawal date. What I did say is that we would have legal agreement that the UK could not afford to walk away from. You said it was a fudge and we'd move the goal posts further down the line. I, and others, said that wouldn't be possible as we couldn't roll back on what we had agreed without the EU walking away from negotiations. All that remains true. Your assertion was that we wouldn't be held to any of what was agreed. You have been proven to be categorically wrong. It fucking hasn’t “become” legislation Its still just a bit of paper as it was in December. Nothing legally has changed whatsoever. You said it would “become” legislation before phase 2 talks. It hasn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: It fucking hasn’t “become” legislation Its still just a bit of paper as it was in December. Nothing legally has changed whatsoever. You said it would “become” legislation before phase 2 talks. It hasn’t. Are you too stupid to read what is in front of you? Legislation is the process of making laws. That's exactly what has happened. The phase one agreement has been translated into legal text. You massive fucking mongoloid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21811 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 economic suicide is still very much alive and kicking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21811 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) except it isn't because the tory party's donors won't allow it and they're not about to let the great unwashed and a few tory mps fuck up their finances Edited March 20, 2018 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: There is no way we're dividing GB and NI. Surely? That is what has been agreed if the following two options can't be agreed. a. The need for customs and regulatory checks aren't required as agreed by the free trade agreement i.e. the UK obeys by SM rules (at least in respect of goods) and maintains the rules of the customs union. This would preclude the UK from striking our own trade agreements with non-EU countries. b. A mythical system of checking regulatory standards and customs can be implemented that uses no physical infrastructure or checks. Basically asking for the impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Ok thanks. The first bit looks totally impossible to agree to since 'signing trade deals with non-EU countries' is one of the main points of this farce. And agreed on the second one. So we may as well stay in the Single Market, arguably? We'd just have to accept freedom of movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I don't think that NI would have to accept FoM under the backstop option. Though if the entire UK were to remain in the single market then it would probably be a requirement as otherwise it's cherry picking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Ok thanks. The first bit looks totally impossible to agree to since 'signing trade deals with non-EU countries' is one of the main points of this farce. And agreed on the second one. So we may as well stay in the Single Market, arguably? We'd just have to accept freedom of movement. We have to stay in the SM to avoid border controls. There can be literally no border controls introduced to NI, and very few to Dover. A lot of the problem here is that many people, including politicians, don't understand what the SM is. It is a legal regulatory zone more than anything else. Disputes are settled internally via ECJ. If we don't want this, it is an obvious necessity that goods will have to be checked at the border, which is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Is there any realistic chance of Freedom of Movement remaining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 For a frictionless border for goods we have to remain in the single market (or something very similar). But I doubt that the EU would allow us to remain in the SM just for goods. We will also want to remain in the SM for freedom of capital and services. But to do so but to exclude the free movement of labour is exactly the sort of cherry picking that the EU has ruled out. So from the outset it would appear that our options are all or nothing. And because of the border situation, nothing doesn't appear to be possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Is there any realistic chance of Freedom of Movement remaining? I think it's one area where there may be some adjustments to appease leavers but they will be token changes. We already have the ability to control FOM if we develop our infrastructure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Of course, most businesses support FoM. Why it winds up CT so much I have no idea. Uber competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I see - I don't mind if they fudge FOM as long as the overall outcome remains broadly the same as the status quo. Let's hope the Irish really do save us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 There will have to be a big climb down from the hard Brexiters but ultimately membership of the SM, or something very similar, is the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 So we're currently fairly optimistic, right? On the grounds that the only viable alternative to broadly remaining in the same position as we are, is total freefall with no deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34822 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Renton said: Of course, most businesses support FoM. Why it winds up CT so much I have no idea. Uber competition? He, along with his cohorts, presumably needs something to hold up as a "success" after all this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: So we're currently fairly optimistic, right? On the grounds that the only viable alternative to broadly remaining in the same position as we are, is total freefall with no deal? Yeah, I'm optimistic now. Ironically I even think the piss weak May may be the best person to deliver this thing as she seems to enjoy being sodomised by the EU. As I said earlier though, I have a 10% fear of an ERG coup resulting in catastrophe. But this is now somewhat diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Alex said: He, along with his cohorts, presumably needs something to hold up as a "success" after all this Exactly. We'll probably end up joining the UE some time soon. Edited March 20, 2018 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Thanks lads, for the breakdown. Does feel like the Tories are just trying to drip feed the bitter truth that very little is going to change at the moment. There's always the chance they'll pull something horrifying in the end, but I guess self interest might prevent that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Thanks lads, for the breakdown. Does feel like the Tories are just trying to drip feed the bitter truth that very little is going to change at the moment. There's always the chance they'll pull something horrifying in the end, but I guess self interest might prevent that. Yeah, my current feeling. I mean, ask yourself why no border infrastructure has even started yet, and no personnel employed? By the time transition is over we are going to be so sick of this shit most won't care if we effectively remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30242 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 It seems nearly impossible to me that even the Tories would drive us off a cliff. But they're so incompetent that I wouldn't rule it out entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Thanks lads, for the breakdown. Does feel like the Tories are just trying to drip feed the bitter truth that very little is going to change at the moment. There's always the chance they'll pull something horrifying in the end, but I guess self interest might prevent that. It's not so much drip feeding purposely, they genuinely have no clue what the fuck is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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