Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 5176]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I warned you this morning you were reading too much into the chapter 49 fudge.

 

Nothing that’s been agreed today rules out any of the things I’ve listed above.

 

As I’ve said all along, I’m more than happy to say I’ve been sold a pup if FTA’s with the rest of the world are ruled out.

 

I really fucking hope you're right about all this CT. Fucking truly I do.

[Renton 21306]

9 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I warned you this morning you were reading too much into the chapter 49 fudge.

 

Nothing that’s been agreed today rules out any of the things I’ve listed above.

 

As I’ve said all along, I’m more than happy to say I’ve been sold a pup if FTA’s with the rest of the world are ruled out.

 

Why on earth is this important to you?

 

And, just to remind you, if we come out the CU, which is an absolute requirement for FTA's by definition, there will have to be a border in NI. This will break the GFA and could see a return of the troubles. Is it really worth it? 

[ewerk 30266]

@Ant

 

 

[Park Life 71]

33 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The main focus of my ire was not you, but in fairness, you were on here a couple of days ago saying we should cancel the whole thing if we couldn't get a good outcome. If that remains your position, I expect to see you admitting you were wrong in due course, and making clear that you will, if given the opportunity, vote against this lunacy.

 

I don't give a shit if people have been wrong about something, I'm wrong all the fucking time (ask ewerk). What bothers me is refusing to acknowledge it. If you need more time to be able to do this, fine, but one way or another you will come to this conclusion.

Preferred it when you were in the alt-right. Now looks at you wanking away in this remainer echo chamber.

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Park Life said:

Preferred it when you were in the alt-right. Now looks at you wanking away in this remainer echo chamber.

 

 

I'm prepared to consider arguments from across the spectrum as long as they make sense - there is no longer any logical framework around Brexit though, as far as I can see. It's just a shambles Parky. Whatever it was, or could have been, the Tories have turned it into a clusterfuck of useless effort.

 

The fact that it is a shambolic, irrational action, defended by people too insecure to admit they were wrong, is something that pisses me off

 

And I've been very clear that I'm pro-EU throughout. I've said I would back a Federal EU project many times over. What I am concerned about is the rational pursuit of desirable outcomes and the wider improvements of peoples lives.

 

Which is a million fucking miles away from where we are right now.

[Park Life 71]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

 

I'm prepared to consider arguments from across the spectrum as long as they make sense - there is no longer any logical framework around Brexit though, as far as I can see. It's just a shambles Parky. Whatever it was, or could have been, the Tories have turned it into a clusterfuck of useless effort.

 

The fact that it is a shambolic, irrational action, defended by people too insecure to admit they were wrong, is something that pisses me off

 

And I've been very clear that I'm pro-EU throughout. I've said I would back a Federal EU project many times over. What I am concerned about is the rational pursuit of desirable outcomes and the wider improvements of peoples lives.

 

Which is a million fucking miles away from where we are right now.

I've maintained from the beginning as Renton will attest there won't be any kind of proper Brexit so I'm not really surprised at the shambles.

 

I will be impacted far more than you if there is a botched Brexit yet I have it in me to look fairly at the leave voters even though they might cause me hassles I currently don't have to worry about yet.

 

The EU have all but destroyed the hopes and aspirations of people under 25 in half of Europe - mainly the South by maintaining Noe-Liberal  austerity promoted by Germany and destroyed the savings of the older folk with endless bond printing and quantum easing.

 

It has turned Eastern Europe to the far right and is pushing Italy into a banking crisis even after it destroyed Greece.

 

So shut the fuck up about it being some kind of cure all panacea.

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Park Life said:

I've maintained from the beginning as Renton will attest there won't be any kind of proper Brexit so I'm not really surprised at the shambles.

 

I will be impacted far more than you if there is a botched Brexit yet I have it in me to look fairly at the leave voters even though they might cause me hassles I currently don't have to worry about yet.

 

The EU have all but destroyed the hopes and aspirations of people under 25 in half of Europe - mainly the South by maintaining Noe-Liberal  austerity promoted by Germany and destroyed the savings of the older folk with endless bond printing and quantum easing.

 

It has turned Eastern Europe to the far right and is pushing Italy into a banking crisis even after it destroyed Greece.

 

So shut the fuck up about it being some kind of cure all panacea.

 

Neoliberalism has all but destroyed the hopes and aspirations of people under 25 in half of Europe mate...

 

And I've said plainly before that I understand the reasons this happened. And cast little to no judgement on that, aside from where it concerns bigotry. My point now is that they should be turning on this, and they're not - so unless you're saying we need to be tolerant of their weakness concerning admitting their mistake, and I can't for the life of me think why you would feel we should, I don't feel as though our positions are different.

 

I didn't say it was a panacea at all incidentally. All I'm saying is that Britain, logically, looking at what we're faced with, is NOT going to be better off out of it. And that the things people thought they were voting for, do not appear to be deliverable. Take the EU itself out of it for a moment - logically, we're in a fucking stupid position. That's my problem.

[Renton 21306]

Anyway, all things being equal, this is good news. Hard Brexit isn't happening. No deal isn't happening. We have taken back control by becoming rule takers rather than rule makers. We are Norway. And Farage is fucking furious. 

[Park Life 71]

As I said in my post Germany and the Northern five are behind European Neo-Liiberal policy and forcing austerity. Frankly all they are worried about is protecting the Euro and everyone else can get to fuck. Me, you and Varoufakis know it doesn't and won't work yet it is maintained to the determent of European peoples. So no I don't think the EU leaders are that interested in the lives and outcomes of its peoples no matter how they dress it up when they pay for an art gallery in Lithuania.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/14/neoliberal-europe-union-austerity-crisis

[Park Life 71]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Anyway, all things being equal, this is good news. Hard Brexit isn't happening. No deal isn't happening. We have taken back control by becoming rule takers rather than rule makers. We are Norway. And Farage is fucking furious. 

As I predicted all along.

[Gemmill 44393]

The former Brexit minister has warned that regulatory alignment will prevent us signing free trade deals with other countries. If we can't move on regulations in, for example, agriculture, then we won't be able to agree a deal involving agriculture (or anything else for that matter) with a third party, unless they also agree to regulatory alignment with the EU. 

 

 

So not only are we going to have to comply with regulations which we have no control over, our compliance with them is going to preclude us from negotiating with anyone else. 

 

Cracking. 

[Gemmill 44393]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/08/suck-it-up-britain-negotiate-brussels-eu-brexit

 

Nailed it. 

[Dr Gloom 21813]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I've been hugely tolerant of, and sympathetic to, the reasons this happened - but the longer this has gone on, and the more clear it is that nothing anyone thought they were fucking voting for is deliverable, the more I'm seeing the people who voted for it dig their heels in and carry on as if its all going to be ok, just because they don't want to admit they were so easily duped.

 

So my tolerance ends there. If you're wrong about something you fucking own it, you don't carry on like spoiled children clutching at every imaginable straw and lashing out at everyone else for your own fuck up.

 

my brother is absolutely unforgiving of anyone who voted brexit. reckons they're all racist morons who deserve everything coming to them. i've tried to debate with him about shit life syndrome etc, but he's very unsympathetic. sounds like the two of you should meet up for a pint

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5176]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/08/suck-it-up-britain-negotiate-brussels-eu-brexit

 

Nailed it. 

 

That's the article that 'triggered' me  Or more the responses to it..

Edited December 8, 2017 by Rayvin

[Alex 34846]

36 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

The former Brexit minister has warned that regulatory alignment will prevent us signing free trade deals with other countries. If we can't move on regulations in, for example, agriculture, then we won't be able to agree a deal involving agriculture (or anything else for that matter) with a third party, unless they also agree to regulatory alignment with the EU. 

 

 

So not only are we going to have to comply with regulations which we have no control over, our compliance with them is going to preclude us from negotiating with anyone else. 

 

Cracking. 

[Park Life 71]

One can safely say that Brexit has been all foreplay and no money shot.

[ewerk 30266]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

The former Brexit minister has warned that regulatory alignment will prevent us signing free trade deals with other countries. If we can't move on regulations in, for example, agriculture, then we won't be able to agree a deal involving agriculture (or anything else for that matter) with a third party, unless they also agree to regulatory alignment with the EU. 

 

 

So not only are we going to have to comply with regulations which we have no control over, our compliance with them is going to preclude us from negotiating with anyone else. 

 

Cracking. 

 

Thats exactly what we’ve been trying to explain to CT.

[Christmas Tree 4689]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

The main focus of my ire was not you, but in fairness, you were on here a couple of days ago saying we should cancel the whole thing if we couldn't get a good outcome. If that remains your position, I expect to see you admitting you were wrong in due course, and making clear that you will, if given the opportunity, vote against this lunacy.

 

I don't give a shit if people have been wrong about something, I'm wrong all the fucking time (ask ewerk). What bothers me is refusing to acknowledge it. If you need more time to be able to do this, fine, but one way or another you will come to this conclusion.

 

 Or, you could be wrong, again

[Christmas Tree 4689]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Why on earth is this important to you?

 

And, just to remind you, if we come out the CU, which is an absolute requirement for FTA's by definition, there will have to be a border in NI. This will break the GFA and could see a return of the troubles. Is it really worth it? 

 

Mots important to me because this was the main benefit of Brexit for me. I said the same at the time.

 

The whole “logic” of Brexit is the perfect scenario. Free trade with EU, paying for the bits we want to join in with, a sovereign country that sets its own immigration criteria and the ability to do our own trade deals. It’s the perfect package if delivered. 

 

Its a a waste of time arguing whether it will or won’t, but nothing today has diminished that package.

 

Regarding the Irish border our government is confident through negotiation / technology we can avoid a hard border. We’ll see.

[Christmas Tree 4689]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

Anyway, all things being equal, this is good news. Hard Brexit isn't happening. No deal isn't happening. We have taken back control by becoming rule takers rather than rule makers. We are Norway. And Farage is fucking furious. 

 

I wouldn’t rule out no deal yet.

[Alex 34846]

5 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Mots important to me because this was the main benefit of Brexit for me. I said the same at the time.

 

The whole “logic” of Brexit is the perfect scenario. Free trade with EU, paying for the bits we want to join in with, a sovereign country that sets its own immigration criteria and the ability to do our own trade deals. It’s the perfect package if delivered. 

 

Its a a waste of time arguing whether it will or won’t, but nothing today has diminished that package.

 

Regarding the Irish border our government is confident through negotiation / technology we can avoid a hard border. We’ll see.

What you might call a logical fallacy

[Renton 21306]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Mots important to me because this was the main benefit of Brexit for me. I said the same at the time.

 

The whole “logic” of Brexit is the perfect scenario. Free trade with EU, paying for the bits we want to join in with, a sovereign country that sets its own immigration criteria and the ability to do our own trade deals. It’s the perfect package if delivered. 

 

Its a a waste of time arguing whether it will or won’t, but nothing today has diminished that package.

 

Regarding the Irish border our government is confident through negotiation / technology we can avoid a hard border. We’ll see.

Okay, why are you confident the UK, with a population of 60 million, can get a better deal than a union, with a population of 500 million? Or, look at it from the perspective of a third country. If you were, say, Canada, which market would you prioritise? It's obviously not going to be the market that's a magnitude smaller is it? Can you explain how you've come to a different conclusion?

 

I'll just pass the cake and eat it nonsense because nobody believes that anymore.

[Renton 21306]

4 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

I wouldn’t rule out no deal yet.

Have you read the documentation? We've agreed to continued alignment no matter what happens. 

[Gemmill 44393]

He's thick as fuck man. Stop arguing with him. 

[Christmas Tree 4689]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Okay, why are you confident the UK, with a population of 60 million, can get a better deal than a union, with a population of 500 million? Or, look at it from the perspective of a third country. If you were, say, Canada, which market would you prioritise? It's obviously not going to be the market that's a magnitude smaller is it? Can you explain how you've come to a different conclusion?

 

I'll just pass the cake and eat it nonsense because nobody believes that anymore.

 

Well like us, Canada wants lots of deals. They don’t just want one with the EU. But more importantly there are loads of countries that are growing fast that we can deal with. Also while the EU has clout in a deal, it can also be very slow at doing them with 27 competing interests.

 

We are the sixth biggest economy in the world and a very appealing potential trade partner.