Europe --- In or Out

[Renton 24205]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:37, Rayvin said:

 

If the EU wants to survive, they need federalism, the Euro, and more financial control from the centre. That's the only way to avoid things like what happened in Greece. I have no doubt that the EU will end up as a superstate, and that it will be quite possibly the most powerful such entity on the planet. Quite possibly within our lifetime.

 

We're not going to be involved, in part, because we don't want to be part of those things. But we'll end up subservient to it in the same way that we are now to the US. Having said that, the EU will be much kinder with us than the US has ever been, I'm sure, because the EU for all its faults does genuinely seem to want to improve people's lives, rather than encouraging a race to the bottom.

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There will be greater integration but not to the extent that nation states will lose sovereignty or the EU will itself become sovereign. Not on our life times. Juncker isn't representative of how most Europeans think, many have concerns of EU over reach just as we have. Nations won't give up their veto. 

[Renton 24205]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:44, Christmas Tree said:

 

The race to the bottom is already well under way and most people couldn't care less unless it effects their own job. 

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BTW, if you need an insight into how CT thinks, here's the post that sums him up. Typical fucking Tory. 

[Rayvin 6147]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:54, Renton said:

 

There will be greater integration but not to the extent that nation states will lose sovereignty or the EU will itself become sovereign. Not on our life times. Juncker isn't representative of how most Europeans think, many have concerns of EU over reach just as we have. Nations won't give up their veto. 

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They have to understand that's where it'll end up though. And the more freedom of movement occurs, the more cultures and people are blended, the more likely it is that this will happen unopposed, IMO.

 

EDIT - having said that, it needs to be done successfully, and slowly, and without Rupert Murdoch.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Rayvin

[Christmas Tree 5222]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:50, Renton said:

 

The Tories are a minority government propped up by the DUP. Hard Brexit in the way you describe would be disastrous for Britain but utterly catastrophic for NI. The unionists must know this as much as the republicans. How is your lovable "Boris" going to square this circle without the support of his flat earth friends? You're looking at a civil war situation.

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The sensible option is for the EU to respect a country's democratic decision and be a tad more positive in moving the negotiations along. If they don't hurry up, they are themselves increasing the likelihood of a hard Brexit which is a lose lose situation.

 

I think May will be making Tusk all too aware of this today. My (slim) gut feeling is that the willy waving is about to stop.

[Renton 24205]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:58, Rayvin said:

 

They have to understand that's where it'll end up though. And the more freedom of movement occurs, the more cultures and people are blended, the more likely it is that this will happen unopposed, IMO.

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Ultimately over several generations, maybe. It's a good thing. But just like in the States, it doesn't mean Europe will be a homogenous mass. Each country will retain their culture and traditions, although this will evolve over time.

 

I mean, seriously, what's the alternative to thiss Roddenberryesque future? Maybe we need an alien invasion to realise we are essentially all the same.

[Christmas Tree 5222]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:57, Renton said:

BTW, if you need an insight into how CT thinks, here's the post that sums him up. Typical fucking Tory. 

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Not at all. Apparent again this week with all the middle class Londoners up in arms because their cheap taxis were in danger.

[Renton 24205]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:00, Christmas Tree said:

 

The sensible option is for the EU to respect a country's democratic decision and be a tad more positive in moving the negotiations along. If they don't hurry up, they are themselves increasing the likelihood of a hard Brexit which is a lose lose situation.

 

I think May will be making Tusk all too aware of this today. My (slim) gut feeling is that the willy waving is about to stop.

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Nope. Haven't even attempted to answer the question on how a hard border in NI will operate. Don't worry, nobody else has yet either.

[Rayvin 6147]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:02, Renton said:

Ultimately over several generations, maybe. It's a good thing. But just like in the States, it doesn't mean Europe will be a homogenous mass. Each country will retain their culture and traditions, although this will evolve over time.

 

I mean, seriously, what's the alternative to thiss Roddenberryesque future? Maybe we need an alien invasion to realise we are essentially all the same.

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 I agree. Have considered the alien invasion angle before as well. You'd think Climate Change would be sufficient but I guess it's not dramatic enough!

[Christmas Tree 5222]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:03, Renton said:

Nope. Haven't even attempted to answer the question on how a hard border in NI will operate. Don't worry, nobody else has yet either.

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 As if I'm going to have the answer to that.

 

As Boris said however, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to overcome.

[Meenzer 16628]

Unfortunately, it's far beyond the wit of that particular man.

[adios 717]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:58, Rayvin said:

 

it needs to be done successfully, and slowly, and without Rupert Murdoch.

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TWSS.

[Rayvin 6147]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:09, adios said:

TWSS.

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That's probably the most fucked up TWSS I've seen

[Dr Gloom 23977]

Just when we thought CT was out, the brexit thread pulls him back in

 

[ewerk 33664]

  On 26/09/2017 at 12:37, Rayvin said:

 

If the EU wants to survive, they need federalism, the Euro, and more financial control from the centre. That's the only way to avoid things like what happened in Greece. I have no doubt that the EU will end up as a superstate, and that it will be quite possibly the most powerful such entity on the planet. Quite possibly within our lifetime.

 

We're not going to be involved, in part, because we don't want to be part of those things. But we'll end up subservient to it in the same way that we are now to the US. Having said that, the EU will be much kinder with us than the US has ever been, I'm sure, because the EU for all its faults does genuinely seem to want to improve people's lives, rather than encouraging a race to the bottom.

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I initially thought this was a post by CT.

[Renton 24205]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:07, Christmas Tree said:

 

 As if I'm going to have the answer to that.

 

As Boris said however, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to overcome.

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The UK government contravening the GFA and having absolutely no political neutrality in NI with the assembly already broken down. What could possibly go wrong?

 

Like it or not, hard brexiters have to realise that NI alone scuppers their plans.

[adios 717]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:15, Rayvin said:

 

That's probably the most fucked up TWSS I've seen

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The inverse seems rather more fucked up.

Just glad someone got my crass Americanism.

[Rayvin 6147]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:17, ewerk said:

 

I initially thought this was a post by CT.

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Heh, it's the primary reason I wanted us to stay. I'm a big supporter of the United States of Europe in principle.

[Rayvin 6147]

  On 26/09/2017 at 13:19, adios said:

 

The inverse seems rather more fucked up.

Just glad someone got my crass Americanism.

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I googled it

[ewerk 33664]

Nonsense and poppycock.

[Meenzer 16628]

 

Erm, I think some of us have been outraged about this for over a year now... Still, nice to have the Telegraph on side. Let those dominoes fall.

 

[ewerk 33664]

Worth it though.

[Renton 24205]

So I guess the Bombardier ruling is what to expect from now on from an increasingly isolationist and protectionist USA. So much for the special relationship. Just as well we are a full part of the world's largest trading bloc. Oh.  ...

[ewerk 33664]

Also puts paid to Corbyn's theory that being out of the single market will allow the government to support industry.

[Rayvin 6147]

Aye but maybe Labour can use Trump as part of the justification for being in. We need something to come along that makes it very clear that we need to stay, and it can't be seen to come from any of the political parties - it needs to be external.

[Alex 37328]

  On 26/09/2017 at 22:05, Meenzer said:

 

Erm, I think some of us have been outraged about this for over a year now... Still, nice to have the Telegraph on side. Let those dominoes fall.

 

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It's a good point re: people being more arsed about stuff like Uber though. Although I'm in your court too. Still fucking seething about the whole thing