Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yeah, not gonna disagree with that. Look, he's not great; I think even I'd accept that at this point. I still feel he was necessary though, and that he has moved Labour in a direction it needed to go. If any of the others had won I suspect I'd be complaining about how out of touch and ineffective they are at present. Who knows though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22185 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Can you at least see where he's trying to position himself though? To be fair to him, his resistance to being portrayed as 'wanting to stay in the EU' appears to be because he knew how toxic that would look to vast swathes of people. Â That said, if he wanted out he should have just come out and said it. That would have been the way to maximize his credibility with the working class. You really are worried about ending up in CT's dinner plate aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Â Pick a side and go with it. Don't claim to be something you're not and then give half-arsed support. So much for the man of principle. Â Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 You really are worried about ending up in CT's dinner plate aren't you? Â Fwiw, I think it's important to be able to consider all angles I'm not going to just blindly stick to my view if things change or additional details come out. I'm interested in developing my understanding as fully as possible and I don't think changing a view as new facts come forward means I lack conviction As much as the internet would certainly have me believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4411 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) I think he was fucked between what he actually wanted to say and respecting agreed party policy - if he'd done a Blair and laid down the party's position from on high he'd have been slated for it so ended up being half-arsed. Â I agree overall its because he's a bit shit. Edited December 22, 2016 by NJS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) You really are worried about ending up in CT's dinner plate aren't you? Â I also still don't think I was wrong to vote for Corbyn. It was necessary and the fallout across the political spectrum in 2016 has made me content that I did the right thing. Edited December 22, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yeah, not gonna disagree with that. Look, he's not great; I think even I'd accept that at this point. I still feel he was necessary though, and that he has moved Labour in a direction it needed to go. If any of the others had won I suspect I'd be complaining about how out of touch and ineffective they are at present. Who knows though. Â In which direction has the party moved? It appears to be a party at a standstill with no strong identity and with an ineffectual leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I think it moved leftwards, and that the PLP acknowledged this with their putting forward of Owen Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The grassroots has moved left and Owen Smith pandered to that in an effort to get the leadership but has the actual party moved left? Have they proposed any left leaning policies or opposed the government on any lefty issues? They may well have done and I missed it but to be honest I haven't heard them take a position on anything much really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35615 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 There's been a lot of talk about how Corbyn has masterminded things by usng social media and appealing to the young in order gain and retain his leadership. The problem there is that you have an ageing population and they are more inclined to vote than the young anyway (see the EU referendum) and they get their news from more traditional, mainstream media outlets. By refusing to play the game with the MSM Â Corbyn has effectively rendered the party both unelectable and irrelevant. Even if his message is good and it isn't the Trotskyite brand of socialism its been painted as (it clearly isn't) then it doesn't really matter because by not playing the game he's allowed the likes of The Sun and The Mail (amongst others) to basically portray him as they see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The grassroots has moved left and Owen Smith pandered to that in an effort to get the leadership but has the actual party moved left? Have they proposed any left leaning policies or opposed the government on any lefty issues? They may well have done and I missed it but to be honest I haven't heard them take a position on anything much really. Â They proposed nationalising railways and heavy infrastructure spending. Both of which I consider to be left leaning concepts. That's just off the top of my head, there are likely to be others. Ultimately my concern is as an economic progressive more than a social or political one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 There's been a lot of talk about how Corbyn has masterminded things by usng social media and appealing to the young in order gain and retain his leadership. The problem there is that you have an ageing population and they are more inclined to vote than the young anyway (see the EU referendum) and they get their news from more traditional, mainstream media outlets. By refusing to play the game with the MSM Â Corbyn has effectively rendered the party both unelectable and irrelevant. Even if his message is good and it isn't the Trotskyite brand of socialism its been painted as (it clearly isn't) then it doesn't really matter because by not playing the game he's allowed the likes of The Sun and The Mail (amongst others) to basically portray him as they see fit. Â I definitely think they're trying to spin it that he's capitalising there but I don't think for a second that he is. I think the pissed off and disaffected youth chose Corbyn rather than him setting out to appeal to them. He embodied an anti-establishment viewpoint that wasn't racist, and so people flocked to him. He's done very little, IMO, to build on that sentiment. Although they are now beginning to talk about doing so. Â And yes, he's not playing the game with the MSM which harms his chances with anyone who doesn't dig deeper to understand what people are saying outside of media framing (i.e., unfortunately, most people). Ultimately this will be his undoing unless they really get something impressive going on the anti-establishment front. They won't though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The UK's top EU diplomat has resigned. So that should help negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46088 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 No surprise to hear that Juncker has spent years trying to block EU attempts to curb tax avoidance. The fucking shithouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Â The UK's ambassador to the EU urged British colleagues in Brussels to challenge "muddled thinking and... speak truth to power" as he quit ahead of Brexit talks, the BBC has learnt. Â Writing to staff, Sir Ivan Rogers said ministers needed to hear "unvarnished" and "uncomfortable" views from Europe. Â Earlier it emerged Sir Ivan would be leaving his post several months early. Â The government said he had quit so a successor could be in place before Brexit negotiations started. Â Sir Ivan's note to staff, obtained by the BBC, confirmed this but also warned the "government will only achieve the best for the country if it harnesses the best experience we have". Â Downing Street said it would not comment on the resignation email, but Sir Ivan was "free to express his own opinions". Â Â So basically Downing Street have been living in a bubble without a plan. No surprises there then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4872 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 IDS has been doing his best to smear and undermine yet another person who knows a damn sight more than anyone in the government seems to regarding the subject today in numerous interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) No surprise to hear that Juncker has spent years trying to block EU attempts to curb tax avoidance. The fucking shithouse. Â Â This was a big point I was making in the run up to the Brexit vote, how corrupt the head of the EU is. Most remainers didn't have a clue who he is. He was placed at the very top for this very reason. Edited January 4, 2017 by Anorthernsoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22185 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 The UK's top EU diplomat has resigned. So that should help negotiations.  we'll still get a cracking deal, once we get past the willy waving  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 we'll still get a cracking deal, once we get past the willy waving   Not so sure we will get past it, rumours the team EU have drafted in Ron Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46088 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Some twat of a civil servant has moaned about criticism. Of a perceived lack of a plan for Brexit, saying "Muhammad Ali didn't brief everyone in advance of the Rumble in the Jungle". [emoji38] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46088 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 He added that "West Ham players perform much better when they're not being booed by their own side". Â Bloke is a fucking bellend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35615 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 He added that "West Ham players perform much better when they're not being booed by their own side". Â Bloke is a fucking bellend. David Cameron's favourite team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Some twat of a civil servant has moaned about criticism. Of a perceived lack of a plan for Brexit, saying "Muhammad Ali didn't brief everyone in advance of the Rumble in the Jungle". [emoji38] Â He was a former ambassador to Lebanon. Not the highest ranking of roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31226 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Reading his goodbye blog post to Lebanon (I'm sure they had a month of mourning) he comes across as a right bellend. Â http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/tomfletcher/2015/07/31/19389/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5310 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Sturgeon with an interesting gambit here - shelving a quick referendum in favour of soft brexit: Â https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/06/nicola-sturgeon-offers-shelve-independence-vote-for-soft-brexit-eu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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