Europe --- In or Out

[ewerk 30221]

I think that as a confirmed racist, Renton is best placed to answer your questions.

Edited July 2, 2016 by ewerk

[Park Life 71]

Technically we should be discussing Globalism. It all started with these 'free trade deals'...What that allowed in the 80's is for the West to move manufacturing to the East without being penalized.

 

It allowed Thatcherism to import coal instead of digging it here (from Poland etc..)....It allowed EDF to buy power infrastructure in the UK. It destroyed the bargaining power of the old unions and fraternal groupings of organized Labour in tight knit communities.

 

The importing of Labour came relatively late on the scene it was tiny amounts in the past 50's, 70's (Carribean/ Indian Subcontinent). What's happened is that China has its own middle class now and wages have gone up in the last two decades....Vietnam and Cambodia aren't as cushty for the purposes of Multinationals....Even India and Sri Lanka (garments/shoes) wages have been rising...It's why Nike and Gap and Apple got caught out...Then there is buildings collapsing in Bangldesh...It ain't good for the brand as their target group is very sensitive (18-35 yr olds) to concerns about the production chain.

 

Half your Porsche is built in Poland.

 

What Capitalism has done is decimate its original host (The West)....High cost of living, low birth rates, dwindling housing, high taxes, rising depression and suicide, crisis in healthcare and education, generally declining quality of life for all apart from the top 10%.

 

Immigrants are just pawns in the game.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Park Life

[Kid Dynamite 6985]

I think that as a confirmed racist, Renton in best placed to answer your questions.

[Kid Dynamite 6985]

Ahh, you're playing the old it was a joke / wind up card are you? Forgive me if I don't find labelling people racists as particularly funny in any context. Not that I believe for a second your comments last night weren't entirely serious any way.

You would have to be blinded by racist hatred to not see that my last comment was blatantly a wind up man. You're such a mardy cunt

Edited July 2, 2016 by StraightEdgeWizard

[NJS 4365]

A mate of mine is a self employed sparky. He works a lot of hours and he has a lot of competition in the area. But his area is largely English lads not immigrants.

 

In my own experience the company I work for has an MD who is Turkish and we have a couple of Romanians. They are skilled lads and know their bacon. Our industry us crying out for skilled and experienced people but since the crash in '08 we can't get people in so despite the odd immigrant here we haven't seen a hit on wages yet so I am lucky.

 

For the past 8-10 years though most companies I've worked for (mostly the bigger ones) send through rebar work a speciality that appears to be dying here to India. Thankfully our gaffer doesn't. It's a total false economy as we usually spend more time correcting the shite. They have massively pushed the need to send it their as they're cheap and can turn it around very quickly and with the time difference through the night. But like i say it's false because it either needs loads of attention or redoing. But the people keeping tight controls of fees like it.

Exactly my experience of offshore software development - managers look at the numbers and think it's great but never see the rework/support involved as a downside when calculating the final cost.

[Park Life 71]

Companies offshoring Labour need to be subject to internal tariffs. It's a piss take.

 

See companies have been getting a free ride and with the aid of the state which it has massive influence over. It's the state the provides the infastructure for business wether it be communications or education or subsidies in the form of tax breaks, grants and cheap loans ie tax credits.

 

When companies and the state are colluding against the people its called Fascism. It is the definition of it.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Park Life

[NJS 4365]

 

Now I'm not drunk can someone please explain why people who think immigrants are a problem for social cohesion and job prospects (disclaimer - I know that they aren't) are racist? I get that they're ignorant potentially, but I can see what Renton is saying here.

 

On the other hand, if people believe this because they're suspicious of foreigners, that does tend towards racism for me. But the kind of racism you'd get all over the world without question.

I think those using a vote on EU immigration (As they see it) as an excuse to have a go at Muslims and Black's have pretty much set their stall out for what they are.

 

Legitimate concerns are fair enough in my view but should be "impersonal" if that makes sense.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

I've said before that it's not just low paid jobs that are affected by Immigration. In my field salaries and contractor rates have risen less than they "should" have done in the last 10 years allowing for inflation mainly because of Indian immigration.

 

However I don't blame the people themselves - I blame the companies who've exploited it to keep cost down - capitalism in other words.

 

This also applies to farmers in Lincolnshire (via Tesco) and firms like SD.

 

I'd also point out that a lot of the blatantly racist leavers are retired so on a personal level they can't justify citing wages as a good reason.

 

Of course there's also concerned about housing/infrastructure but again it's not the immigrants' fault that we have had an abysmal housing policy for forty years.

I agree with this. It's not being racist and blaming immigrants, it's the lack of a sensible migration plan.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Naah, just you, and your attitude as it happens. If you can link me to an angry response to anyone else in this thread, feel free (CT doesn't count).

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Anyway, Is it right Corbyns just hanging on to bury Blair then he's off.

[NJS 4365]

Anyway, Is it right Corbyns just hanging on to bury Blair then he's off.

Possibly. I'm waiting to be wowed by a candidate if that the case and as I've said it's certainly not Eagle.

[Park Life 71]

Labour stopped talking about Globalism ages ago. Most of them are now in on it...It won't make any difference who wins the next 3 elections unless a new party is formed.

 

We're coming to a very crucial moment in European history as now much more than before there is a recognition amongst large groupings that the Status Quo isn't working for the vast majority. Once this realization hits Germany and its started to in the East where there hasn't been anything like the promised resurgence of jobs and living standards then all these neo-liberal structures are going to start to collapse. Austerity and the creation of free money by the elite is the last gasp it has no other cards to play.

 

Think about it this way a vast proportion of our GDP is people buying stuff not people making stuff. Multinationals are done with Europe and it can't provide jobs with just mobile phones, white goods and financial services. If Germany hadn't kept its manufacturing base it would have been game over already. Even flagship stuff like Airbus have been illegally subsidized by the state and they have been in court for it two or three times now.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/brexit-britain-elites-run-amok

 

"It’s that latter point that has the U.S. Trade Representative and other federal agencies worked up. The European violation of trade treaties is no academic matter — it is the main reason why America has gone from being the dominant supplier of jetliners around the world with three domestic producers to a faltering competitor of Europe with only one domestic producer (Boeing). WTO found that without a continuous stream of illegal aid to Airbus, Europe couldn’t have accomplished that feat; in fact, to quote a June filing of the U.S. Trade Representative with the WTO, in the absence of illegal aid Airbus “quite probably would not have existed at all.”

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2012/07/16/european-lies-about-airbus-subsidies-set-stage-for-major-u-s-retaliation/#12144fb26ac5

Edited July 2, 2016 by Park Life

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Possibly. I'm waiting to be wowed by a candidate if that the case and as I've said it's certainly not Eagle.

Aye, I'm not sure where you go from here. You are trying to keep a party together made up of hard left and Tory lite. It's the Tory lite side that wins elections but the hard left which seems closer to true labour.

 

The party membership has been hijacked to some degree. Traditional heartlands are drifting to UKIP.

 

Surely the only way out of this is a split of some sort.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Labour stopped talking about Globalism ages ago. Most of them are now in on it...It won't make any difference who wins the next 3 elections unless a new party is formed. We're coming to a very crucial moment in European history as now much more than before there is a recognition amongst large groupings that the Status Quo isn't working for the vast majority. Once this realization hits Germany and its started to in the East where there hasn't been anything like the promised resurgence of jobs and living standards then all these neo-liberal structures are going to start to collapse.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/brexit-britain-elites-run-amok

There was a canny slot on Newsnight last night from France. It's basically building up the same as here.

 

If Le Penn gets in the EU's toast by the looks of it.

[PaddockLad 17070]

There was a canny slot on Newsnight last night from France. It's basically building up the same as here.

If Le Penn gets in the EU's toast by the looks of it.

Did it say how likely that was?....

 

It's the one thing the Scots Nats haven't really considered , what sort of EU they're in such a rush to join. I think after the last 18 months there's at least the same chance of France leaving if they're given the chance to vote on it.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Did it say how likely that was?....

 

It's the one thing the Scots Nats haven't really considered , what sort of EU they're in such a rush to join. I think after the last 18 months there's at least the same chance of France leaving if they're given the chance to vote on it.

Hard to say, le Penn is way ahead in the polls but there is a Tory leader type vote where it was hoped shed lose in round two. However like here there's a growing revolt from the right and left which is only being spurred on by Brexit.

 

I think it's all heading to big reforms in the EU being the only brake.

 

I honestly don't know enough about the power plays in the EU / EU countries to know whether it will happen and what's preventing it.

[Rayvin 5164]

Hard to say, le Penn is way ahead in the polls but there is a Tory leader type vote where it was hoped shed lose in round two. However like here there's a growing revolt from the right and left which is only being spurred on by Brexit.

 

I think it's all heading to big reforms in the EU being the only brake.

 

I honestly don't know enough about the power plays in the EU / EU countries to know whether it will happen and what's preventing it.

 

Big reforms forced through by the departure of France and Britain would be something I'd get behind if we could re-enter once it's done.

[Renton 21234]

Hard to say, le Penn is way ahead in the polls but there is a Tory leader type vote where it was hoped shed lose in round two. However like here there's a growing revolt from the right and left which is only being spurred on by Brexit.

 

I think it's all heading to big reforms in the EU being the only brake.

 

I honestly don't know enough about the power plays in the EU / EU countries to know whether it will happen and what's preventing it.

I was reading yesterday about the practicalities of invoking article 50 and they are horrendous. After 2 years of divorce negotiations, we won't only have to renegotiate trade deals with the EU, but also the 80 nations we are currently trading with as part of the EU. We have 20 people qualified to do this! Of course, the civil service has been hammered in recent years. New trade deals could take decades.

 

I'd imagine it would be virtually impossible for France, who are in the eurozone, to do this.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

I was reading yesterday about the practicalities of invoking article 50 and they are horrendous. After 2 years of divorce negotiations, we won't only have to renegotiate trade deals with the EU, but also the 80 nations we are currently trading with as part of the EU. We have 20 people qualified to do this! Of course, the civil service has been hammered in recent years. New trade deals could take decades.

 

I'd imagine it would be virtually impossible for France, who are in the eurozone, to do this.

I know it's more complex than this, but if we have an EU trade deal with small country A, why can't we just keep the existing deal when we go alone?

 

Some might need a little tweak, but I don't see why some need to start from scratch.

[Sonatine 11306]

[Rayvin 5164]

I was reading yesterday about the practicalities of invoking article 50 and they are horrendous. After 2 years of divorce negotiations, we won't only have to renegotiate trade deals with the EU, but also the 80 nations we are currently trading with as part of the EU. We have 20 people qualified to do this! Of course, the civil service has been hammered in recent years. New trade deals could take decades.

 

I'd imagine it would be virtually impossible for France, who are in the eurozone, to do this.

 

All the EU laws we've been using will need to be re-ratified in Parliament as well. This is going to take decades.

[Rayvin 5164]

I know it's more complex than this, but if we have an EU trade deal with small country A, why can't we just keep the existing deal when we go alone?

 

Some might need a little tweak, but I don't see why some need to start from scratch.

 

The EU trade deals are set up within a bloc that has a much better negotiating position than we do on our own. The EU can get much better deals than we can. Other countries will not give us such favourable terms.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

 

The EU trade deals are set up within a bloc that has a much better negotiating position than we do on our own. The EU can get much better deals than we can. Other countries will not give us such favourable terms.

I understand that but a lot of these trade deals are with small countries that I'm sure will still want to deal with the world 5th biggest economy.

[Renton 21234]

I know it's more complex than this, but if we have an EU trade deal with small country A, why can't we just keep the existing deal when we go alone?

 

Some might need a little tweak, but I don't see why some need to start from scratch.

Because all deals are off when we leave the EU, we'll be on WTO terms. There was an article on the BBC on it yesterday from the pov of one of the commissioners. Have a look, sorry I don't know how to link to the BBC on this phone.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

Because all deals are off when we leave the EU, we'll be on WTO terms. There was an article on the BBC on it yesterday from the pov of one of the commissioners. Have a look, sorry I don't know how to link to the BBC on this phone.

I know that, but as I've said, I'm sure a lot of these smaller countries will be desperate to continue trading with the worlds 5 th biggest economy. I imagine they'll be desperate to continue as normal.