Europe --- In or Out

[Park Life 71]

The immigration case has been made badly and has clearly been hamstrung by mad decisions made in Brussels. Countries with wholly incompatible economies were given free movement with neither thought nor diligence nor care to the impact on the richer countries. Sheer stupidity. The case could have been that free movement was a goal for the recent joiners not a right. Even countries like Portugal has lost 20% of its population, probably its brightest and youngest.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Park Life

[wykikitoon 20117]

Why would it be scrapped and why would that be a positive? We need major investment in our infrastructure. I would have thought an engineer would appreciate this.

 

To have investment into infrastructure we need a transport policy. We don't have a transport policy its fucking gash and a joke.

 

HS2 is a joke. The money should be spent on the NHS. It was supposed to knock off 20mins or the like from a journey between London and Manchester. Some guru came up with some maths that a business mans time and cost and that would equate to fortunes saved. Then they started adding stops in along the line. Then they realised for it to terminate at Euston it would cost a shit load more money and cause back ups. Then they plan on stopping it at Crewe now and then people would have to jump onto some more local shite creaking infrastructure, so in essence you save fuck all time.

 

We cannot connect to the existing infrastructure due to lack of investment throughout the years and HS2 will soon have that also. Billions spent on it and it will soon be fucked and late. The programme for it is a fucking joke too.

[Renton 21592]

No election til 2020 so you've got a bit of breathing space.

You were wrong about Cameron resigning and I think you're wrong about this.

 

I predict May to win the leadership at the conference, and to trigger an immediate GE, before pressing the article 50 button. Leave will have to get it through the normal way of dealing with democracy in thus country, through representative democracy. They can hardly campaign since that is what they say they ate fighting for.

 

As Cameron said today when dealing with Corbyn, this is more important than party politics. Unchartered waters are ahead. And I can't believe it had come to this but I'd almost be relieved at May as pm at this stage.

[wykikitoon 20117]

You were wrong about Cameron resigning and I think you're wrong about this.

 

I predict May to win the leadership at the conference, and to trigger an immediate GE, before pressing the article 50 button. Leave will have to get it through the normal way of dealing with democracy in thus country, through representative democracy. They can hardly campaign since that is what they say they ate fighting for.

 

As Cameron said today when dealing with Corbyn, this is more important than party politics. Unchartered waters are ahead. And I can't believe it had come to this but I'd almost be relieved at May as pm at this stage.

 

My thoughts exactly re May

[Renton 21592]

 

To have investment into infrastructure we need a transport policy. We don't have a transport policy its fucking gash and a joke.

 

HS2 is a joke. The money should be spent on the NHS. It was supposed to knock off 20mins or the like from a journey between London and Manchester. Some guru came up with some maths that a business mans time and cost and that would equate to fortunes saved. Then they started adding stops in along the line. Then they realised for it to terminate at Euston it would cost a shit load more money and cause back ups. Then they plan on stopping it at Crewe now and then people would have to jump onto some more local shite creaking infrastructure, so in essence you save fuck all time.

 

We cannot connect to the existing infrastructure due to lack of investment throughout the years and HS2 will soon have that also. Billions spent on it and it will soon be fucked and late. The programme for it is a fucking joke too.

I know a canny bit about the technical and economic details of HS2 and let's just say I think you are factually wrong on almost every point here. Most importantly, the real need for HS2 is to massively increase capacity, not to reduce journey times. Our railways need massive investment and new railways are the only way to do this. Hopefully this will include HS3 to link up the north.

 

Anyway, way off topic, but scrapping HS2 is not a plus for me.

[wykikitoon 20117]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Are-Trams-Socialist-Transport-Perspectives/dp/1907994564/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467201873&sr=8-1&keywords=transport+policy

 

Have a read of that sometime, could be up your street Renton. Would like to know your thoughts.

[Renton 21592]

The immigration case has been made badly and has clearly been hamstrung by mad decisions made in Brussels. Countries with wholly incompatible economies were given free movement with neither thought nor diligence nor care to the impact on the richer countries. Sheer stupidity. The case could have been that free movement was a goal for the recent joiners not a right. Even countries like Portugal has lost 20% of its population, probably its brightest and youngest.

I agree completely.

 

Genie is out the bottle now though, do we kill the genie?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

The Blairite faction of the PLP want Corby out at all costs and they have been at it for ages...They know no matter how he dresses it up he isn't really a Europhile and never has been.

 

This the soft right grouping (that hijacked the party many moons ago) has all but lost any sense of solidarity with the rank and file of traditional Labour voters (who are patriotic and localist and strongly tribal and regional). The Blairites who do most of their scheming and falaffel gorging in hip London dens and can be seen taking the air by the Thames while discussing cross dressing and man bags and water projects in Africa are nothing short of stunned. Now that house in Tuscany and posing for pictures with actors and fact finding missions to Brussels (where they hoped to end up in their dotage - see Kinnock, Blair and others)..is on the line they are playing at naked survival politics and trying to rid themselves of the only person in the party who is still pretty close to the grass roots.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

You were wrong about Cameron resigning and I think you're wrong about this.

 

I predict May to win the leadership at the conference, and to trigger an immediate GE, before pressing the article 50 button. Leave will have to get it through the normal way of dealing with democracy in thus country, through representative democracy. They can hardly campaign since that is what they say they ate fighting for.

 

As Cameron said today when dealing with Corbyn, this is more important than party politics. Unchartered waters are ahead. And I can't believe it had come to this but I'd almost be relieved at May as pm at this stage.

There's no upside for the Tory party which is why there will be no GE. A lot of Tory seats voted leave.

 

Crabb has already ruled it out as has Boris. Expect the same from May.

[Renton 21592]

There's no upside for the Tory party which is why there will be no GE. A lot of Tory seats voted leave.

 

Crabb has already ruled it out as has Boris. Expect the same from May.

I don't expect the same from May though. The majority of Tories are in, she could win the leadership on that promise.

 

Who the fuck knows any more?

[Rayvin 5217]

I think May might be the Tory to come out and save us. If she puts a GE down and offers freedom of movement, I'll vote Tory. I'll die a little inside, but some things are more important and there is no credible opposition.

[Tom 14011]

With your extensive knowledge, you really deserve more lacerated guitar smilies.

Nice one. A real contribution.

[Rayvin 5217]

I don't expect the same from May though. The majority of Tories are in, she could win the leadership on that promise.

 

Who the fuck knows any more?

 

You and I are clutching at the same straws, my friend

[Renton 21592]

 

You and I are clutching at the same straws, my friend

I know. But I think the Leave mandate is pretty thin, and the longer this uncertainty goes on the more likely it is this will just not happen.

 

Edit: this is an example article from a brexiteer:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html

Edited June 29, 2016 by Renton

[Dickie 0]

The Blairite faction of the PLP want Corby out at all costs and they have been at it for ages...They know no matter how he dresses it up he isn't really a Europhile and never has been.

 

This the soft right grouping (that hijacked the party many moons ago) has all but lost any sense of solidarity with the rank and file of traditional Labour voters (who are patriotic and localist and strongly tribal and regional). The Blairites who do most of their scheming and falaffel gorging in hip London dens and can be seen taking the air by the Thames while discussing cross dressing and man bags and water projects in Africa are nothing short of stunned. Now that house in Tuscany and posing for pictures with actors and fact finding missions to Brussels (where they hoped to end up in their dotage - see Kinnock, Blair and others)..is on the line they are playing at naked survival politics and trying to rid themselves of the only person in the party who is still pretty close to the grass roots.

 

 

I'm still erring on the side of Corbyn, although I do understand and appreciate the argument made by lots of people that he is unelectable. The reason I'm not convinced he should go is that I still think he genuinely wants the best for people in this country rather than being driven by personal ambition, not sure I could say the same for any the ones who've indulged in all this self-serving skullduggery. It's true that the party seems to be tearing itself apart, but he's not the one doing the tearing to be fair to him, he's just doing what he was elected to do - lead the party the way he thinks is right. He might well be unelectable in a GE, but what's to say he wouldn't have been electable if all the snakes had gotten behind him right form the start? They could be putting forward a really strong left leaning message to the public now to capitalise on the capitulation of the tories while hammering UKIP, Johnson, Gove, Murdoch et al for being the lying bastards they are.

[Rayvin 5217]

I know. But I think the Leave mandate is pretty thin, and the longer this uncertainty goes on the more likely it is this will just not happen.

 

Edit: this is an example article from a brexiteer:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-wont-really-happen-second-referendum-markets-value-housing-pound-a7106996.html

 

Good article. I'll tell you what like, I promise to never complain about Parliament ignoring the will of the people ever again if they get us out of this...

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21912]

The immigration case has been made badly and has clearly been hamstrung by mad decisions made in Brussels. Countries with wholly incompatible economies were given free movement with neither thought nor diligence nor care to the impact on the richer countries. Sheer stupidity. The case could have been that free movement was a goal for the recent joiners not a right. Even countries like Portugal has lost 20% of its population, probably its brightest and youngest.

 

the rank and file working class Labour voter that labour has lost in droves doesn't relate to Corbyn man. he's a metropolitan guardianista - exactly the type of scruffy, bearded falafel-munching university lecturer you refer to. he may speak in their interests, but he doesn't speak to them.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

There's no upside for the Tory party which is why there will be no GE. A lot of Tory seats voted leave.

 

Crabb has already ruled it out as has Boris. Expect the same from May.

 

there will be no election before 2020, says CT confidently.

 

blatantly the next football genius/business as usual

[Rayvin 5217]

 

the rank and file working class Labour voter that labour has lost in droves doesn't relate to Corbyn man. he's a metropolitan guardianista - exactly the type of scruffy, bearded falafel-munching university lecturer you refer to. he may speak in their interests, but he doesn't speak to them.

 

I don't think Corbyn even went to University, did he?

[Alex 35064]

Read CT's lips: No more taxis

[Alex 35064]

 

I don't think Corbyn even went to University, did he?

Dropped out of poly

[Renton 21592]

Dropped out of poly

The thick twat.

[Rayvin 5217]

The thick twat.

 

[PaddockLad 17244]

the rank and file working class Labour voter that labour has lost in droves doesn't relate to Corbyn man. he's a metropolitan guardianista - exactly the type of scruffy, bearded falafel-munching university lecturer you refer to. he may speak in their interests, but he doesn't speak to them.

 

Yet, somewhat ironically, the very same treacherous fucktards who are trying to force him out were the ones who lost the support of their core vote. It was over when Corbyn took the reigns because of them turning the party not to the centre ground but into slightly more socially conscious Tories. I agree with some of what Renton says but whether he agrees or not the perception among working class Brexit voters is that Labour turned its back on its heartlands over a decade ago. That's the problem and what's left of the Labour electorate aren't having any more of it. It's a mess, a split is the best thing for everyone so they can plough their own furrows. Edited June 29, 2016 by PaddockLad

[Dr Gloom 21912]

 

I don't think Corbyn even went to University, did he?

 

i didn't know that. you know what i mean though. he's an intellectual, not a leader. he looks like he'd more comfortable speaking to local activists in a corduroy suit jacket with elbow patches than talking to the nation in a suit. i totally agree that his message is one that the poorest in society should be listening to because it's in their interests, but his message doesn't resonate. it's partially because he wont' make any concessions to his core beliefs, it's also because he looks like and sounds like an academic who'd be happier reading books than talking to people. and in the age of celebrity politics, charisma and personality goes a long way - which is probably why that opportunist cunt johnson is going to be our next leader.