Europe --- In or Out

[Dr Gloom 21940]

Well there's 4 undecideds in the toontastic poll

 

I always suspected there was a few shy Tories on here.

Name and shame!

[catmag 337]

Latest Nursing Times poll shows more support for leave than remain.

 

You are taught very early on as a student nurse that the Nursing Times is the equivalent of The Sun in nursing journal circles.

 

And ewerk - nice safety wink

[JJ 0]

I'll name and shame myself as an undecided on the poll. Mainly because while I think Leave is fucking daft, it doesn't mean that I have any enthusiasm whatsoever for voting for this uninspiring, timid, pathetic campaign. I'm sure in the event of a potential Leave vote folk will come out and blame people like me for not turning out and voting for the status quo. Much like how Labour blame the electorate when they bring out xenophobic mugs and have stupid stones carved and then wonder why people can't be arsed to support them anymore. A Leave vote will be more to do with the stupidity of the campaign. I think the Remain campaign has taken a leaf out of Better Together up here. Unable to make the positive case for the European Union, they settle for telling people all the stuff they can't do with a Brexit. The trouble is, the Better Together campaign is seen as a success only because No won our referendum. But they managed to turn a 40-45 point lead at that start of the campaign into a 10 point win. A shambles. They didn't have that margin for error at all in this campaign however.

 

I hate how Farage, Boris et al are painted as Euroskeptics. It's more a semantic argument, but they've made up their mind. I'd class myself as a Euroskeptic more accurately. Always been a little uncomfortable with the European project and how resistant it is to positive reform.

 

I could easily have voted Leave in this referendum, and probably would have but for two reasons. Firstly, there's absolutely no plan for what happens from June 24th onwards. Literally none. And second, the Leave campaign has been an exercise in narrow minded, right wing xenophobic nationalism worse than anything I ever saw up here in 2014. When Leave are losing arguments, they resort to telling people to believe in Britain. Talking about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels while ignoring Britain has the second largest unelected chamber on Earth. Talking about "there's a reason it's called GREAT Britain." Mostly jingoistic bullshit.

 

So yeah, I'll probably walk into the polling station and hold my nose, vote Remain and hate Thursday. Or I might just draw a very detailed and graphic cock and balls on the ballot paper. Fuck knows. Fuck both campaigns. But fuck Leave and it's xenophobic, myopic, mendacious campaign so much more.

[JJ 0]

PS David Cameron claims Brexit could cause World War III. So he put a referendum in his manifesto and then carried through with it safe in the "knowledge" that it could cause, in his mind anyway, global conflict. All to satisfy a few rebellious back benchers. What a fuckwit.

[NJS 4389]

PS David Cameron claims Brexit could cause World War III. So he put a referendum in his manifesto and then carried through with it safe in the "knowledge" that it could cause, in his mind anyway, global conflict. All to satisfy a few rebellious back benchers. What a fuckwit.

I think even if remain wins by a Scotland like margin in the end, he's still finished when people wake up to how stupid it all was even leaving the campaigns aside.

[ewerk 30630]

So yeah, I'll probably walk into the polling station and hold my nose, vote Remain and hate Thursday. Or I might just draw a very detailed and graphic cock and balls on the ballot paper. Fuck knows. Fuck both campaigns. But fuck Leave and it's xenophobic, myopic, mendacious campaign so much more.

You're involved in politics aren't you? As such you should have a reasonable ability to grasp the arguments on each side yourself and weigh up the pros and cons. The campaigns are to sway the people who want to have their mind made up for them. I don't understand why you're placing so much reliance on the campaigns rather than the facts.

[Dr Gloom 21940]

Yeah, Cameron's done whatever the outcome now - a troubling prospect when you see who is waiting in the wings to take over as leader

[Rayvin 5223]

Yeah, Cameron's done whatever the outcome now - a troubling prospect when you see who is waiting in the wings to take over as leader

 

Oh God...

 

It'll be Theresa May won't it...

[Renton 21635]

You're involved in politics aren't you? As such you should have a reasonable ability to grasp the arguments on each side yourself and weigh up the pros and cons. The campaigns are to sway the people who want to have their mind made up for them. I don't understand why you're placing so much reliance on the campaigns rather than the facts.

My thoughts entirely. We're not voting for the best campaign. We're voting for a simple choice, is our future in the EU or out. It's also fuck all to do with the Scottish referendum, so JJ I don't see the relevance of that discussion.

 

If people are voting on campaigns or personalities, it once again shows the flaws in referendums. After this is over, I hope we never have one again. If an important issue needs sorting, a party can adopt that issue in its manifesto. Then, if voted in, they can mandate it. I guess the Scottish one was a bot different in that the mechanism I described couldn't work in a minority country, but people have UKip to represent themselves in this issue. No other party supports leaving the EU after all.

[Renton 21635]

 

Oh God...

 

It'll be Theresa May won't it...

Probably.

[Dr Gloom 21940]

Corbyn having a mare on Andrew Marr, saying there can't be an upper limit to free movement into the UK. Showing why he's lost touch with so many of Labour's core white working class voters.

 

He's basically doing the leave campaign's job for them

Edited June 19, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[strawb 4268]

I will be voting to stay. I work in H&S, it is discussed regularly in our circles that people's H&S at work would be put under pressure if we were to leave.

 

The current government has already cut the HSE budget by 100 million, which is seeing inspectors visits fall year on year. This was all done in the name of reducing "red tape" and there are plans to push if further which are currently being held up by European regs. This "red tape" means not only are workplace fatalities & accidents falling across Europe but the UK is performing best.

 

I know H&S can be seen as a party spoiler or whatever but our record and methods are something to be proud of and improve rather than reduce, IMO.

[ewerk 30630]

Corbyn having a mare on Andrew Marr, saying there can't be an upper limit to free movement into the UK. Showing why he's lost touch with so many of Labour's core white working class voters.

 

He's basically doing the leave campaign's job for them

Stop it with your irrational hatred!!!!

Edited June 19, 2016 by ewerk

[Rayvin 5223]

Corbyn having a mare on Andrew Marr, saying there can't be an upper limit to free movement into the UK. Showing why he's lost touch with so many of Labour's core white working class voters.

 

He's basically doing the leave campaign's job for them

 

He is at least telling the truth, though.

[JJ 0]

You're involved in politics aren't you? As such you should have a reasonable ability to grasp the arguments on each side yourself and weigh up the pros and cons. The campaigns are to sway the people who want to have their mind made up for them. I don't understand why you're placing so much reliance on the campaigns rather than the facts.

As I said, as a bit of a Euroskeptic naturally, I was pretty much waiting for a reasonable plan of what will happen post Brexit, and then see if I could jump on board. There is no plan.

 

There is very little chance of me having any enthusiasm to vote to stay in the European Union as it is currently constructed, under the idea that "we can only reform it from within" when it is so resistant to change.

 

That's kind of my opinion. This referendum really isn't for me as neither argument fills me with any enthusiasm and the resulting quality of the debate has been so poor in terms of misinformation and scapegoating that it has just made me so pissed off. Both campaigns have sought to keep the electorate as ill informed as possible. That's my biggest frustration.

 

As I said, I probably walk in on Thursday and vote for the least bad option. Aren't you all sick of doing that?

[Rayvin 5223]

As I said, as a bit of a Euroskeptic naturally, I was pretty much waiting for a reasonable plan of what will happen post Brexit, and then see if I could jump on board. There is no plan.

 

There is very little chance of me having any enthusiasm to vote to stay in the European Union as it is currently constructed, under the idea that "we can only reform it from within" when it is so resistant to change.

 

That's kind of my opinion. This referendum really isn't for me as neither argument fills me with any enthusiasm and the resulting quality of the debate has been so poor in terms of misinformation and scapegoating that it has just made me so pissed off. Both campaigns have sought to keep the electorate as ill informed as possible. That's my biggest frustration.

 

As I said, I probably walk in on Thursday and vote for the least bad option. Aren't you all sick of doing that?

 

That's democracy.

[JJ 0]

My thoughts entirely. We're not voting for the best campaign. We're voting for a simple choice, is our future in the EU or out. It's also fuck all to do with the Scottish referendum, so JJ I don't see the relevance of that discussion.

If people are voting on campaigns or personalities, it once again shows the flaws in referendums. After this is over, I hope we never have one again. If an important issue needs sorting, a party can adopt that issue in its manifesto. Then, if voted in, they can mandate it. I guess the Scottish one was a bot different in that the mechanism I described couldn't work in a minority country, but people have UKip to represent themselves in this issue. No other party supports leaving the EU after all.

The reason I brought up the referendum up here was just the similarity in the swing towards the massive change, due to the inadequacy of the status quo campaign. It's not like I'm saying it has anything to do with it. Just the similarities in the way the campaign went is not only obvious, but something we predicted.

 

People vote on personalities all the time. To me it's the biggest reason Labour under add Miliband got such a spanking last year. It's not right, but our electorate is largely daft.

 

And referendums aren't so much the problem. It's the deliberate attempts from both prominent politicians aswell as the media to keep the public as uninformed as possible on such a big decision. The risk with your suggestion (as much as I mostly agree with it) is that people will then hijack an election and try to turn it into a de facto referendum. Hell, the hardcore Independence folk up here do that. "Both votes SNP it's the only way to get our independence" in the recent Holyrood election, when the SNP don't even have it in their manifesto. It's idiotic. The same will happen with UKIP if there's a Remain vote.

[JJ 0]

That's democracy.

I know it's great eh?

[ewerk 30630]

The reason I brought up the referendum up here was just the similarity in the swing towards the massive change, due to the inadequacy of the status quo campaign.

It's incredibly difficult to get people excited about the status quo though. You have the side asking for change promising that everything is going to be so much better if you vote for them while the side seeking to retain the status quo can only say 'this is as good as it gets'.

[JJ 0]

It's incredibly difficult to get people excited about the status quo though. You have the side asking for change promising that everything is going to be so much better if you vote for them while the side seeking to retain the status quo can only say 'this is as good as it gets'.

Totally agree that it's really difficult. But you can campaign on the current and future benefits of staying, instead of trying to scare the shit out of people to make them fall in line. There's a difference between using fear tactics and pointing out the obvious flaws in the Brexit "plan" but I feel like the fear card is the default position.

 

I reckon I could make a more coherent positive case for the European Union than anyone in the pro-Remain campaign is willing to make, and I'm not in the least bit enthused about the EU.

[Christmas Tree 4728]

As I said, as a bit of a Euroskeptic naturally, I was pretty much waiting for a reasonable plan of what will happen post Brexit, and then see if I could jump on board. There is no plan.

 

There is very little chance of me having any enthusiasm to vote to stay in the European Union as it is currently constructed, under the idea that "we can only reform it from within" when it is so resistant to change.

 

That's kind of my opinion. This referendum really isn't for me as neither argument fills me with any enthusiasm and the resulting quality of the debate has been so poor in terms of misinformation and scapegoating that it has just made me so pissed off. Both campaigns have sought to keep the electorate as ill informed as possible. That's my biggest frustration.

 

As I said, I probably walk in on Thursday and vote for the least bad option. Aren't you all sick of doing that?

I'm pretty sure there will be a plan in place should we leave. This is a civil service that had numerous scenarios worked out anticipating which party / which coalition may have taken over last year.

 

I'm pretty sure that back door discussions between Cameron and other EU countries will also already have begun. Of course nothing is going to be revealed before the vote.

 

Sounds stupid, but it's not even that complicated. Most of government / policies will carry on as is and a team will be put in place to look at our new trading relationship in 2 years time. Let's not forget, only 6% of companies export to Europe.

 

The only real unknown is how markets will react once it's done and whether a recession follows in 2017. If it does, it's predicted to be not horrific. Osbourne will find more money down the sofa and life will go on.

 

A year down the line the worst will be over and parties will concentrate on 2020.

[NJS 4389]

Plans in place

 

Firstly there will be a massive task to disengage eu law from British law - a huge task in itself.

 

The two year thing has nothing to do with trade - it's just to negotiate the exit. The trade agreements will take years.

[NJS 4389]

Try this:

 

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/

[Renton 21635]

 

That's democracy.

Your a young one, so if you haven't, please watch Auf Wiedersehen Pet (ignore Gemmill). The lads make a democratic vote about the colour they should paint their shed. They end up with grey, which no individual voted for:

 

"Dennis Patterson: Well that's a smashing system that is, isn't it Barry eh? Everybody gets what nobody wants.

Barry Taylor: That's democracy Dennis."

 

It's true. Nobody has ever put it more succinctly though.

[Rayvin 5223]

 

That sounds bang on, actually.