Europe --- In or Out

[Renton 21579]

 

I think it comes down to electoral viability versus principles once again. I didn't vote him in to win an election (bizarre as that may sound, and at the risk of Renton wading in and clobbering me with a multi-post anti-Corbyn barrage), I voted him in because I didn't want to compromise my views any more.

 

That said, it'd be ideal if he could be electorally viable as well as allowing me to vote for my principles. And sadly, he isn't very good at making noise on the big points.

Sadly, you don't seem to get that Corbyn doesn't actually have as many principles as Ed Miliband does. He's not actively campaigning for Remain, because he doesn't believe in the EU. He knows this is an untenable position, so he's looking down at his shuffling feet.

 

You support remain don't you? Then you shouldn't be supporting Corbyn. Plenty of "new labour" (now "old labour") have been actively campaigning for remain. The hijacked party of the 3 quid labour party don't give a shit about this, the most important vote in several generations, though.

[adios 717]

You're so sexy when you're angry.

[Rayvin 5217]

Sadly, you don't seem to get that Corbyn doesn't actually have as many principles as Ed Miliband does. He's not actively campaigning for Remain, because he doesn't believe in the EU. He knows this is an untenable position, so he's looking down at his shuffling feet.

 

You support remain don't you? Then you shouldn't be supporting Corbyn. Plenty of "new labour" (now "old labour") have been actively campaigning for remain. The hijacked party of the 3 quid labour party don't give a shit about this, the most important vote in several generations, though.

 

I do support Remain, but I reckon it'll happen with or without Corbyn. I think this is one of those times I can have my cake and eat it tbh, risky as that may sound.

 

Otherwise agree that this doesn't seem to be high on Labour's priorities, and that this is likely because Corbyn doesn't support it.

[Meenzer 15518]

 

I do support Remain, but I reckon it'll happen with or without Corbyn. I think this is one of those times I can have my cake and eat it tbh, risky as that may sound.

 

Otherwise agree that this doesn't seem to be high on Labour's priorities, and that this is likely because Corbyn doesn't support it.

 

Or to put it another way:

 

"And the real left reason for leaving is a pretty bleak one to try to sell: Let’s try to get one arm out of this straitjacket before the shooting starts isn’t ever going to look great on the side of a battle bus. The left saw what Europe did to Greece and despite that, they want to stay, like a Scout group on Jim’ll Fix It determined to still enjoy meeting Kim Wilde."

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/brexit-referendum-campaigns-politicians

[ewerk 30557]

I have to admit, I thought that this bpop concert was doomed but looks like they've really turned it round.

 

[Gemmill 44805]

[emoji38] Fuck me. Why can't Bucks Fizz just call themselves Bucks Fizz anymore though? I bet it's the fucking EU's doing.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

[emoji38] Fuck me. Why can't Bucks Fizz just call themselves Bucks Fizz anymore though? I bet it's the fucking EU's doing.

Bobby G owns the name. The Fizz as their fans call them know they are the real deal regardless of this.

[Renton 21579]

[emoji38] Fuck me. Why can't Bucks Fizz just call themselves Bucks Fizz anymore though? I bet it's the fucking EU's doing.

Continuing the champagne enemas theme, I suggest they change their name to Butts Fizz, or something.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Renton

[Alex 35062]

Came a cropper on the Great North Road back in the day.

[Gemmill 44805]

Aye, Mike Nolan's been trying to make his mind up ever since.

[Alex 35062]

[Monkeys Fist 42379]

 

 

Will Farage be joining them for "The Land of Make Believe"?

[Meenzer 15518]

Needless to say, I am devastated by this turn of events.

 

Consoling myself with this comprehensive A-Z guide to all the bullshit written about Yoorop in the British media over the years.

 

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

[ewerk 30557]

Gove and Johnson doing their best men of the people impressions on the Sunday shows, attacking FTSE bosses and the 'elite'.

 

Yes, that Michael Gove.

 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Nice that the debate is getting some prime time airing.

 

 

 

Anyone changed their view over the last few months?

 

The unscientific impression I get from taxi, Facebook etc is that a lot of working class, particularly younger, are for out.

 

I've swayed a bit over the last few weeks. I quite like the idea of Britain being fully independent, controlling borders and doing our own trade deals etc, however Its worrying that so many "bodies" are forecasting doom if we leave.

 

Currently still voting stay, but I'm open to leave if they can convince me the economy won't go tits up.

[Rayvin 5217]

To be honest, I think it's becoming really difficult to hold a solid opinion with all the doom mongering going on. I'm sticking to my guns and voting in, but I can see both sides of this.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

To be honest, I think it's becoming really difficult to hold a solid opinion with all the doom mongering going on. I'm sticking to my guns and voting in, but I can see both sides of this.

 

It's safe to say no-one really knows what the fuck is going on or what will happen. It's all projected figures and total uncertainty. Basing your whole argument on immigration is totally ridiculous as every aspect of life will be affected by coming out of Europe, yet the Brexit campaign is fully centred around "Closing the borders". The strange thing about the whole thing for me is that you have Tories arguing against Tories, then after the vote the same Tories will be sucking each other off again. Either way the Tories are still in fucking charge!

[Rayvin 5217]

I think they'll unravel though - DC and Osborne won't survive this unless it's pretty convincing. Which, rather terrifyingly, leaves us with...Gove? Johnson? May?!

[Meenzer 15518]

I'm starting to think we might shoulder-shrug our way into leaving. The arguments on either side are so relatively unprovable that I don't see why it'd motivate don't-knows to move in either direction, and those who want to leave are more likely to get out there and do it. Hoping for a late move towards safety and the status quo à la Scotland, but we'll see...

[Rayvin 5217]

I suspect you're right. The more I think about it, the more I can't believe how lessons weren't learned after Scotland. The Tories have no plan B whatsoever, it's project fear all the way with them.

 

Who knows where we'll end up but the only thing any of us can do is make sure we go out to vote.

[Monkeys Fist 42379]

I'm starting to think we might shoulder-shrug our way into leaving. The arguments on either side are so relatively unprovable that I don't see why it'd motivate don't-knows to move in either direction, and those who want to leave are more likely to get out there and do it. Hoping for a late move towards safety and the status quo à la Scotland, but we'll see...

This is my fear- once again,apathy will see the Right win.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I'm not interested in right or left or whether it Tories or Labour. Only interested in which will be the best outcome for Britain.

 

Tonight's interview with Hillary Benn, who I quite like, did nothing to persuade me to remain.

 

Things were brought up such as British law already provides better paid holidays and maternity leave than the requirements set out by Europe. Also the treasury report states that if we leave and IF a recession followed, it's likely to be the shallowest recession in the last 80 years.

 

Interesting also seeing Corbyns old quotes on Europe which are very much out.

[Meenzer 15518]

That's why I think focusing on the fear factor is counterproductive; we can suspect (and I'm reasonably sure Brexit would do us more than a little harm - Paris and Frankfurt are already rubbing their hands) but we can't know. I'd love to see it framed more in terms of the positive side of the concept, i.e. even *if* we accept it doesn't matter hugely either way at a financial level, the question is whether we want to shape and be part of the greatest peacetime project of the continent where we actually live, exercising the role of a world power, or not. But of course you can't frame it like that because too many people have been conditioned to be suspicious of "Europe". In any case, Brexit just feels like a massive lack of ambition - insular in every sense - and I think we should be better than that as a country in the modern world, so that's at the heart of me voting remain as much as any economic considerations really.

 

Also my mam's Swedish and she'd smack me.

[NJS 4377]

My base instinct has always been to see the UK as part of something large enough to compete with China, India, the US and any other emerging mass entity. A little UK outside of that mass will be stomped on imo.

[Renton 21579]

That's why I think focusing on the fear factor is counterproductive; we can suspect (and I'm reasonably sure Brexit would do us more than a little harm - Paris and Frankfurt are already rubbing their hands) but we can't know. I'd love to see it framed more in terms of the positive side of the concept, i.e. even *if* we accept it doesn't matter hugely either way at a financial level, the question is whether we want to shape and be part of the greatest peacetime project of the continent where we actually live, exercising the role of a world power, or not. But of course you can't frame it like that because too many people have been conditioned to be suspicious of "Europe". In any case, Brexit just feels like a massive lack of ambition - insular in every sense - and I think we should be better than that as a country in the modern world, so that's at the heart of me voting remain as much as any economic considerations really.

 

Also my mam's Swedish and she'd smack me.

Good post.

 

It's project fear versus project lies. Imo the fear is very justified though, the lies aren't.

 

I asked a few weeks ago on this thread how immigration can be controlled through Brexit. Can anyone enlighten me? Should Brexit occur, it's completely inconceivable to me that we won't remain in the EEA, which means we'll have to retain free movement of labour, no ifs or buts. So the Brexiters won't get their wish of this green and pleasant land not being tainted by foreigners. But we will still have to pay for market access without any of the additional benefits and without any say at all in EU governance.

 

What am I missing?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Renton