Andrew 4748 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 One side has Farage, Galloway, Gove and IDS on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 And the other side has... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4748 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 And the other side has... Not them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35079 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Gove is such a fucking cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Reading this, can't see many who are undecided being swayed by what Cameron has got from Brussels this week... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-renegotiation-what-david-cameron-wanted-and-what-he-really-got-a6885761.html Hopefully I'll get a proxy vote as I think we're in either Cairns or Darwin round then Am "in", Labour have no chance of winning in 2020 iyam so as alluded to above we need something to stem the worst excesses of the Tories.. Are there any Tory "excesses" Europe has stemmed over the last 6 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21621 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Matthew Paris (writing in the times) of all people for me wrote an excellent article today for the case to stay in. Basically about not just our responsibilities for the country, but also our responsibilities for Europe, in that Europe will also be weaker without us. We already know the US don't want that. But think abouti Russia, Putin will be loving it. The EU weaker? China will be smiling. As for ISIS watching Europe fall apart? Fulfils their prophecies. Anyway, good article from a tory I thought, pay walled unfortunately. Edited February 20, 2016 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Not them No but there are even more cunts on the other side of the fence. Though that tends to be the case for any issue in politics. I'm yet to hear any real argument about how leaving the EU will really benefit anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35079 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Are there any Tory "excesses" Europe has stemmed over the last 6 years?you wouldn't necessarily know what any government might've done without the restrictions of being in the EU. It's impossible to answer really but I believe a lot of workers' rights are down to being in. I'm quite cynical about it all really but. Think the status quo might be the lesser of 2 evils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 you wouldn't necessarily know what any government might've done without the restrictions of being in the EU. It's impossible to answer really but I believe a lot of workers' rights are down to being in. I'm quite cynical about it all really but. Think the status quo might be the lesser of 2 evils I honestly have no idea re in or out and just wondered if there is any thing in particular PL was referring too. Literally off the top of my head the EU seems unable to stop things like mining or steel decline or even the Iraq invasion. You tend to hear more of countless rules for this and that, that a uk government has no control over, but I doubt the majority of people are aware of the detail. Hopefully the coming months might flesh out the pros / cons but I have a feeling it will be immigrants etc that will end up swaying the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Literally off the top of my head the EU seems unable to stop things like mining or steel decline or even the Iraq invasion. Sounds like you crave closer political integration. Well Cameron has just sold you you. Vote in, vote Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21621 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Surely if the greatest PM of our life times is campaigning for in, that's all you need to know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33182 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Temporary workers weren't allowed holiday entitlement, it was European legislation that changed that which the then Tory government wouldn't have done themselves. The European working time directive is another piece of Legislation they can't abide. European human rights is mocked by the likes of the mail but is there for a reason, despite the odd discrepancy. (Same as the unemployed stories where they're all somehow buying 50" plasma TVs etc, which the Sun loves printing). The Tories are already trying to chip away at weak unions using laws they wouldn't dare apply to themselves regarding voting percentages, being free of Europe would be a boost for their more domestic business friends. The Tories wanting to remain in Europe obviously have ties with businesses that rely on trade abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 In. I can't see any benefit of leaving. I hope some of the more mindless Tory voters have learned their lesson & wont simply be swayed by immigration propoganda. I'm very suspicious of Cameron & his approach to this by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33182 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 In. I can't see any benefit of leaving. I hope some of the more mindless Tory voters have learned their lesson & wont simply be swayed by immigration propoganda. I'm very suspicious of Cameron & his approach to this by the way. It'll be in his own interests, his extended friends interests or favours being clawed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30602 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 At least Cameron knows which side his bread is buttered. The media's interest in which side the colossal fuckwit Boris Johnson will come down on is ridiculous and he's milking it. How such a simpleton came to be in such a position of power is mind boggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33182 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 At least Cameron knows which side his bread is buttered. The media's interest in which side the colossal fuckwit Boris Johnson will come down on is ridiculous and he's milking it. How such a simpleton came to be in such a position of power is mind boggling.It only mirrors the world of Toontastic where posters wait to see which side of the European fence CT will sit on. (Not that I'm suggesting CT is a colossal fuckwit, of course, nor suggesting he'd milk anything on here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15525 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.99lvp1nrt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35079 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Temporary workers weren't allowed holiday entitlement, it was European legislation that changed that which the then Tory government wouldn't have done themselves. The European working time directive is another piece of Legislation they can't abide. European human rights is mocked by the likes of the mail but is there for a reason, despite the odd discrepancy. (Same as the unemployed stories where they're all somehow buying 50" plasma TVs etc, which the Sun loves printing). The Tories are already trying to chip away at weak unions using laws they wouldn't dare apply to themselves regarding voting percentages, being free of Europe would be a boost for their more domestic business friends. The Tories wanting to remain in Europe obviously have ties with businesses that rely on trade abroad. I'm cynical enough to think the EU (and the expansion in particular) was a lot to do with a supply of cheap labour for the richer nations. You'd probably get the same if we left only with less workers' rights though. Think there's a lot of waste and it needs reform though. Edited February 21, 2016 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21621 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm cynical enough to think the EU (and the expansion in particular) was a lot to do with a supply of cheap labour for the richer nations. You'd probably get the same if we left only with less workers' rights though. Think there's a lot of waste and it needs reform though. Are people so cynical now that there is no belief in altruism? Or maybe the belief we are more productive as a whole than separate nations? Or maybe even the best way to avoid war is to be economically tied? I don't know, I was a massive europhile but am hugely disillusioned now. I was naive, I accept. And maybe I'm uber naive, but I think the intentions of the EU were benevolent, at least originally. I'm not willing to let go of the idea just yet, and, as you allude to, think the reality of being left to our own Daily mail devices is probably much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21621 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Was also thinking, in the event of a no vote, I'd put my money in Scotland. They will almost certainly get a referendum and leave the UK. I don't care about the technicalities, they will get fast tracked EU membership and the Euro. Then they will get huge investment from extra-European countries such as the US and Japan as they are English speaking (sort of) and won't be subject to tariffs. North sea oil will be irrelevant, a nice boost in the future maybe. Think Eire should be celebrating too. Edited February 21, 2016 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Was also thinking, in the event of a no vote, I'd put my money in Scotland. They will almost certainly get a referendum and leave the UK. I don't care about the technicalities, they will get fast tracked EU membership and the Euro. Then they will get huge investment from extra-European countries such as the US and Japan as they are English speaking (sort of) and won't be subject to tariffs. North sea oil will be irrelevant, a nice boost in the future maybe. Think Eire should be celebrating too. I just jizzed a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Temporary workers weren't allowed holiday entitlement, it was European legislation that changed that which the then Tory government wouldn't have done themselves. The European working time directive is another piece of Legislation they can't abide. European human rights is mocked by the likes of the mail but is there for a reason, despite the odd discrepancy. (Same as the unemployed stories where they're all somehow buying 50" plasma TVs etc, which the Sun loves printing). The Tories are already trying to chip away at weak unions using laws they wouldn't dare apply to themselves regarding voting percentages, being free of Europe would be a boost for their more domestic business friends. The Tories wanting to remain in Europe obviously have ties with businesses that rely on trade abroad. Not to go off on a tangent but it was Labour who blocked the EU's Temporary agency work directive for six years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 I don't think Cameron wanted any of this at all. The referendum was simply a ploy to see off UKIP and steady the ship with his own back benchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Reading articles like this I can sort of see the "benefits" of being out. https://t.co/3DmWJ0fI7a Be interesting to see some equally factual arguments for stopping in other than keeping the status quo or scare stories. (Not aimed at anyone in here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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