Craig 6700 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You disagree? You think there's no difference between gender and sexual orientation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31223 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that there's a difference between gay marriage and same sex marriage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6700 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yes. Consider trangenderism. As it stands a male/female couple who are married and one of them wishes, for whatever reason to switch gender HAVE to divorce by law regardless of their happiness / desire to stay together. In these scenarios just because one person changes gender, they don't necessarily change sexual orientation - the two are very separate entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 31223 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yeah but it's a very rare situation, it's hardly unreasonable to brand it the gay marriage act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6700 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yeah but it's a very rare situation, it's hardly unreasonable to brand it the gay marriage act. It is if you're not gay but want to be married to someone of the same gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I disagree; It's the belief that there is no god, or gods, or any higher power and in this age is usually tied up with secular humanism which is a belief system just like any other. If you had a literal absence of belief then you'd be a nihilist - like me. But why do you find religious architecture beautiful? As you tinker logos burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Not that interesting. One is choice and the other is sexual orientation. I think people with faith don't see their belief as a choice, (hence large numbers of gay Christians, even Catholics - why don't they just choose not to believe what they believe if their church despises them?) despite however you matter-of-factly you dismiss it. Feel like I'm going to have to get the crayons out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think people with faith don't see their belief as a choice, (hence large numbers of gay Christians, even Catholics - why don't they just choose not to believe what they believe if their church despises them?) despite however you matter-of-factly you dismiss it. but free will is at the heart of Christian theology...so I don't think that's true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 but free will is at the heart of Christian theology...so I don't think that's true.. What isn't true? You either have faith or you don't. You don't choose to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10972 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think people with faith don't see their belief as a choice, (hence large numbers of gay Christians, even Catholics - why don't they just choose not to believe what they believe if their church despises them?) despite however you matter-of-factly you dismiss it. Feel like I'm going to have to get the crayons out soon. Are you being deliberately ornery or just thick? People may not feel like they have a choice, but they do. There is no choice about your sexuality. Be you hetero, homo, bi, a, or anyother sexual that's how you are. The religion you have is your choice. Gay Christians may indeed struggle with the turmoil that exists because some parts of the religion they choose conflicts with who they are, but it's their choice to cling to their faith despite it being contrary to their nature. Anyway, Christianity (or any other religion) doesn't have to be homophobic, you can take from it what you wish. That's how you have gay vicars, or gay Republicans or whatever. Religion is a choice and saying that people might not feel like it is, doesn't change a God-Damned thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 What isn't true? You either have faith or you don't. You don't choose to have it. so you're saying free will doesn't exist? You definitely choose to have faith - the entire of the New Testament is loaded with rhetoric about the choice to follow Jesus or not. hence Heaven or Hell - how you choose to live your life results in one or the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Are you being deliberately ornery or just thick? People may not feel like they have a choice, but they do. There is no choice about your sexuality. Be you hetero, homo, bi, a, or anyother sexual that's how you are. The religion you have is your choice. Gay Christians may indeed struggle with the turmoil that exists because some parts of the religion they choose conflicts with who they are, but it's their choice to cling to their faith despite it being contrary to their nature. Anyway, Christianity (or any other religion) doesn't have to be homophobic, you can take from it what you wish. That's how you have gay vicars, or gay Republicans or whatever. Religion is a choice and saying that people might not feel like it is, doesn't change a God-Damned thing. You clearly have no concept of faith whatsoever, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You clearly have no concept of faith whatsoever, do you? Neither do you by the look of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10972 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You clearly have no concept of faith whatsoever, do you? Your arrogance is staggering. End of the day, faith is a man-made construct and sexuality is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 so you're saying free will doesn't exist? You definitely choose to have faith - the entire of the New Testament is loaded with rhetoric about the choice to follow Jesus or not. hence Heaven or Hell - how you choose to live your life results in one or the other... Choosing to follow Jesus or not is not the same as choosing to believe he (god) exists. Btw I'm atheist as they come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10972 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Choosing to follow Jesus or not is not the same as choosing to believe he (god) exists. Btw I'm atheist as they come No, but it's still a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloopJohn 0 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) Choosing to follow Jesus or not is not the same as choosing to believe he (god) exists. Yes it is - as Jesus claimed to be the son of god then if you choose to follow him you choose to believe in god Edited February 5, 2013 by SloopJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Your arrogance is staggering. End of the day, faith is a man-made construct and sexuality is not. We all have a God-complex, didn't you know? Faith may certainly be a man made complex but that doesn't change people can simply change their beliefs at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Can't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10972 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 We all have a God-complex, didn't you know? Faith may certainly be a man made complex but that doesn't change people can simply change their beliefs at will. Only a fool would say it was an simple choice, but it's a choice nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Mmm I still disagree. Everything else in life you choose to believe based on the evidence you have available. With faith, there is no evidence, there is nothing to weigh up, so there is no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 22007 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I disagree; It's the belief that there is no god, or gods, or any higher power and in this age is usually tied up with secular humanism which is a belief system just like any other. If you had a literal absence of belief then you'd be a nihilist - like me. But why do you find religious architecture beautiful? You're defining atheism as a typical theist would; I'm a negative atheist, I simply lack belief in God(s). I realise that I cannot disprove the existence of God and tbh this is of no interest to me now. Religious architecture was made by man. I find many things made by man beautiful. I'm not going to get into some debate about the philosophical nature of beauty, that would be as pointless as trying to prove there is no God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 7084 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Only a fool would say it was an simple choice. Difficult to contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6700 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I'm fucking elated that this has gone though the Commons. I have grave reservations as to whether it'll get passed through those bigoted twats in the Lords though. I said earlier I had a vested interest in this vote. A few of you are aware of what I'm about to say - most, are not. In September last year, I received a letter from my 44 year old brother. We don't see each other that regularly perhaps once or twice a year and I was aware, albeit in the back of my mind, that I hadn't seen him for quite a while. The letter rather frankly pointed out that he had was under the care of a specialist and had been diagnosed 'gender dysphoric' and what's more, it's something he had been aware of since the age of 3. Until I read that letter I had no idea. To those unaware, gender dysphoria is not where someone simply pronounces they feel like they're in the wrong body, nor as it is commonly mis-reported, a mental disease, it's a medical condition, inherent in the person from before birth that can bring about serious depression leading to self mutilation and in some cases, attempts at suicide. Although he never said it directly, he indicated that on two separate occasions in the previous 18 months he'd seriously considered suicide. There are two options of dealing with this condition post-diagnosis. Ignorance and continuation 'as-is' but the mental prognosis for this is extremely poor. Or the other option is 'gender transition'. My brother opted for the latter. In order to follow this path you have to demonstrate your intentions before you can progress and to do this you have to exist socially in the desired gender for a period of time. Towards the end of last year I lost a brother and gained a sister. He is married with 3 children and they will celebrate their 20th wedding anniversary this year. However difficult it may appear, his wife is standing by the person she has been married to and had children with for so long and they intend to remain together. Since I learned about this situation I have had several long conversations together to fully understand the torment experienced in youth, the cover up to my parents and what is involved now and going forward. The one point that boiled my piss was when I was told that after almost 20 years of marriage they legally HAD to divorce - no option and if they didn't, they were breaking the law. What absolute fucking unnecessary horseshit! That family and in particular the kids are going through enough shit to deal with without having the stresses of a divorce (however amicable) to have to go through as well. Why can't they remain married? They're in a loving relationship and my sister-in-law is accepting and supportive of path that has been chosen. I don't expect everyone to understand this situation, it's something that I've had to take time to accept and understand and I am still to talk to one of my children about it as they are simply too young to understand. But I do know that cases such as this are more regular that people would believe. But after tonight's vote at least there's hope that they don't have to go through what I think is a farce of a legal procedure because the man has become a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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