Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 A nice wriggle but not good enough. It was the acceptance of Easter European countries which caused the predicted flood. Labour were warned and other countries limited the amount they let in. We didn't. It's now well known though why we didn't re my last post. You can wriggle all you like but every Labour politician says they got it wrong, including Balls and Miliband. You just have to accept that on this occasion you're wrong. I'm not wriggling honestly. In happy to be educated. I can't find what your talking about anywhere on the internet. If you can find me a reputable link I'll be happy to accept it and admit I'm wrong, whilst being amazed more political capital was not made out of it at the time. I thought we couldn't prevent polish immigration under EU law - show me I'm wrong and it was Labours fault. You're the one that went party political first btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 What problem are you solving with credit cards or vouchers? It causes a problem more than anything with the additional admin to introduce it for no savings whtsoever? The only "problem" it solves is the niggle in your head that someone on benefit might enjoy a drink, a smoke and a lottery ticket.....the only pleasure they can afford on their miserable existence the poor sods. It depends whether you have the "poor sods" view or the "work shy" view. I made it very clear in the op I wasn't talking about genuine cases who have lost work are can't find work. I was talking about a section who are quite happy to get by on benefits. If you think they don't exist then not much point discussing them. If we agree they do exist, then you can move on to what solutions can be found to change their outlook, to make them want to find work. What is the carrot. Most of us have grown up with a work ethic passed down. These days a lot grow up with the opposite ethics. If you can get by having a smoke, a drink, a bet, most bills paid, lie in every day, up playing cards every night.... You either leave the system as it is or look at ways to make benefits less sustaining leading to a greater desire to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm not wriggling honestly. In happy to be educated. I can't find what your talking about anywhere on the internet. If you can find me a reputable link I'll be happy to accept it and admit I'm wrong, whilst being amazed more political capital was not made out of it at the time. I thought we couldn't prevent polish immigration under EU law - show me I'm wrong and it was Labours fault. You're the one that went party political first btw. Was my Financial Times link not reputable enough for you I'm on a phone so won't be researching for you but a quick google on labour immigration flood will find you many quotes from Straw, Milliband, Balls and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 It depends whether you have the "poor sods" view or the "work shy" view. I made it very clear in the op I wasn't talking about genuine cases who have lost work are can't find work. I was talking about a section who are quite happy to get by on benefits. If you think they don't exist then not much point discussing them. If we agree they do exist, then you can move on to what solutions can be found to change their outlook, to make them want to find work. What is the carrot. Most of us have grown up with a work ethic passed down. These days a lot grow up with the opposite ethics. If you can get by having a smoke, a drink, a bet, most bills paid, lie in every day, up playing cards every night.... You either leave the system as it is or look at ways to make benefits less sustaining leading to a greater desire to work. I know some people that have ended up on benefits that have worked most of their lives but can't anymore....and i know people who have been on benefits since leaving school who have no intention of finding work. I respect the ones that worked and am happy they get the benefits they made a contribution towards and fully deserve. I pity the ones that have neither the education or the opportunity to get a job that pays better than their benefits, which are a pittance. I don't know ANYONE that is particularly workshy, who enjoys being on benefits more than they would work, but just live to take what small amount they can. I'm sure they exist, but they are such a tiny minority of anecdotal cases that changing the entire system to punish them, and in effect, those other people above that need/deserve help, is more harmful than helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) CT you do realise the Tories are embarking on the biggest cuts to welfare since WW2? http://inequalitiesblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/national-epistemic-communities-and-european-welfare-cuts-welfare-defense-manifestos-in-the-uk-and-in-italy/ Edited September 20, 2012 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Was my Financial Times link not reputable enough for you I'm on a phone so won't be researching for you but a quick google on labour immigration flood will find you many quotes from Straw, Milliband, Balls and co. First 2 hits are predictably extreme right wing websites. Third is the FT link which merely says Labour underestimated the amount of immigration, not how they could have stopped it. What I'm interested to know is as both we and Poland are EU members, could we have put immigration quotas that would restrict us working in each others countries, seemingly in contravention of article 21 of the MT, signed by Major? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33282 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 What problem are you solving with credit cards or vouchers? It causes a problem more than anything with the additional admin to introduce it for no savings whtsoever? The only "problem" it solves is the niggle in your head that someone on benefit might enjoy a drink, a smoke and a lottery ticket.....the only pleasure they can afford on their miserable existence the poor sods. Exactly. I've had the 'pleasure' of being out of work through the years, (I work in manufacturing), and the benefits are just about enough to live on, some people save money as best as they can from their meagre cash so they can have the luxury of a few cans etc or a treat for the kids but this idea of a large percentage of the unemployed gambling away whilst drinking with a 50" plasma bought from their dole money is just fucking ludicrous when the truth of the matter is people out of work are on the bones of their arse. I've known a lot of friends and acquaintances be out of work and not one of them have lived the life of riley. Maybe it's just a moan perpetuated from a belief of some that they've got to get out of bed in a morning when the unemployed don't have to yet still do alright. It's a myth, they don't do alright, try swapping your worklife for a life on the dole having a lie in but being skint. For all the bullshit about the workshy I'll bet nobody on here, and I mean none, zippo, fuck all would be ecstatic to be put out of work. Why? If this myth about 50" plasma tellys and a life of luxury is true I'd be over the moon to swap work for the dole. It isn't true and everyone deep down knows it but it's nice to have a moan on your break at work isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30669 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 What I'm interested to know is as both we and Poland are EU members, could we have put immigration quotas that would restrict us working in each others countries, seemingly in contravention of article 21 of the MT, signed by Major? Anyone? Due to the fact that so many countries were joining at the same time in 2004 there was a worry that the stronger economies would be faced with a mass-influx of migrants from these states, some looking to work, some there only for benefits. As a result, existing EU members were allowed to put short term restrictions on any potential migrants. Countries such as Germany had quotes, others required evidence that the migrant previously had a strong employment history. The UK didn't have any of these restrictions though they did restrict access to benefits for these migrants. All measures were temporary and all have since been lifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy 12 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Exactly. I've had the 'pleasure' of being out of work through the years, (I work in manufacturing), and the benefits are just about enough to live on, some people save money as best as they can from their meagre cash so they can have the luxury of a few cans etc or a treat for the kids but this idea of a large percentage of the unemployed gambling away whilst drinking with a 50" plasma bought from their dole money is just fucking ludicrous when the truth of the matter is people out of work are on the bones of their arse. I've known a lot of friends and acquaintances be out of work and not one of them have lived the life of riley. Maybe it's just a moan perpetuated from a belief of some that they've got to get out of bed in a morning when the unemployed don't have to yet still do alright. It's a myth, they don't do alright, try swapping your worklife for a life on the dole having a lie in but being skint. For all the bullshit about the workshy I'll bet nobody on here, and I mean none, zippo, fuck all would be ecstatic to be put out of work. Why? If this myth about 50" plasma tellys and a life of luxury is true I'd be over the moon to swap work for the dole. It isn't true and everyone deep down knows it but it's nice to have a moan on your break at work isn't it? This post is bang on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 CT you do realise the Tories are embarking on the biggest cuts to welfare since WW2? http://inequalitiesblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/national-epistemic-communities-and-european-welfare-cuts-welfare-defense-manifestos-in-the-uk-and-in-italy/ And rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Due to the fact that so many countries were joining at the same time in 2004 there was a worry that the stronger economies would be faced with a mass-influx of migrants from these states, some looking to work, some there only for benefits. As a result, existing EU members were allowed to put short term restrictions on any potential migrants. Countries such as Germany had quotes, others required evidence that the migrant previously had a strong employment history. The UK didn't have any of these restrictions though they did restrict access to benefits for these migrants. All measures were temporary and all have since been lifted. Ah, ok. So would it be fair to extrapolate this to 'Labour opened the floodgates to immigrants' then? I don't remember much complaint of this at the time when it helped the economy boom. Maybe not so good in hindsight though. Still, provides the usual right wingers with a hate target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 It depends whether you have the "poor sods" view or the "work shy" view. I made it very clear in the op I wasn't talking about genuine cases who have lost work are can't find work. I was talking about a section who are quite happy to get by on benefits. If you think they don't exist then not much point discussing them. If we agree they do exist, then you can move on to what solutions can be found to change their outlook, to make them want to find work. What is the carrot. Most of us have grown up with a work ethic passed down. These days a lot grow up with the opposite ethics. If you can get by having a smoke, a drink, a bet, most bills paid, lie in every day, up playing cards every night.... You either leave the system as it is or look at ways to make benefits less sustaining leading to a greater desire to work. How do you differentiate between the poor sods and the work shy? It's the latter who are usually most adept at manipulating the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17290 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Ah, ok. So would it be fair to extrapolate this to 'Labour opened the floodgates to immigrants' then? I don't remember much complaint of this at the time when it helped the economy boom. Maybe not so good in hindsight though. Still, provides the usual right wingers with a hate target. I tell you one thing its contributed to...the near 1 million young people not working. Most semi skilled/un skilled work done by youngsters in years gone by in my game is now done (brillaintly, tbf) by Polish lads and lasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven 0 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Tory MP tells jobless youth to work for less than minimum wage http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/20/tory-mp-youth-minimum-wage A Conservative MP has come under fire after claiming that young unemployed workers should busk to raise money for their travel fares, and work for less than the minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 I don't remember much complaint of this at the time when it helped the economy boom. Millibands words were something like.... "It contributed to dragging down workers pay and conditions", but yes some fat cats got richer. You closet Tory you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 I tell you one thing its contributed to...the near 1 million young people not working. Most semi skilled/un skilled work done by youngsters in years gone by in my game is now done (brillaintly, tbf) by Polish lads and lasses. I had a bloke in the car the other day who works at a ship repair yard on the wear. They have to get skilled workers in from abroad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Aye, kids should busk just to get the bus fair into town so they can look for a job. Said of course by a privately educated Oxford graduate Tory MP. Sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Millibands words were something like.... "It contributed to dragging down workers pay and conditions", but yes some fat cats got richer. You closet Tory you That was said retrospectively though, wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I had a bloke in the car the other day who works at a ship repair yard on the wear. They have to get skilled workers in from abroad! So immigrants were necessary then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17290 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I had a bloke in the car the other day who works at a ship repair yard on the wear. They have to get skilled workers in from abroad! Thats because they'll be paying next to fuck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Thats because they'll be paying next to fuck all. His words exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4729 Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Tory MP tells jobless youth to work for less than minimum wage http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/20/tory-mp-youth-minimum-wage A Conservative MP has come under fire after claiming that young unemployed workers should busk to raise money for their travel fares, and work for less than the minimum wage. Wow! That's what you call a story blown out of all proportion. 1. Suggesting some 16-18 do work based apprenticeships rather than traditional higher education is I'm sure what a lot of us on here have said is perfect common sense rather than channelling all kids through university. I'm sure there would be thousands of kids and parents who would jump at this. 2. Re the busking. According to that article he was making a point to a whingy labour MP basically saying if there's a will there's a way and giving an example. Typical lefty shite IMO. Always fucking moaning but never any ideas that don't involve throwing money at something. No wonder 13 years has left the country fucked, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21643 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Not remotely partisan are you CT? Thought all parties were the same? FYI the story was front page of the metro this morning, which is hardly a left wing paper. I just can't understand how you can be happy with 'solutions' like this bearing in mind you have kids who are nearly grown up? Whoever is to blame, doesn't youth unemployment and lack of opportunities bother you? Do Tebbit-like sound bites not irritate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17290 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 His words exactly. It basically means theyre not paying lads with say a wife 2 kids and a 70k mortgage from the north east a living wage. I bet you the managing director calls himself a "wealth creator" though, the fuckin lying cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Tory MP tells jobless youth to work for less than minimum wage http://www.guardian....th-minimum-wage A Conservative MP has come under fire after claiming that young unemployed workers should busk to raise money for their travel fares, and work for less than the minimum wage. Did you hear about that Aussie woman? Richest woman in the world. Inherited her fortune. Pure luck. Complaining in an interview that Australians should work in her mines for $2 a day “stop whingeing” "If you're jealous of those with more money, don't just sit there and complain," “Do something to make more money yourself - spend less time drinking or smoking and socialising, and more time working” "Become one of those people who work hard, invest and build, and at the same time create employment and opportunities for others." "if we competed in the Olympic Games as sluggishly as we compete economically, there would be an outcry." "Furthermore, Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than two dollars a day. Such statistics make me worry for this country's future." The fat, Mr Creosote looking, evil slag. http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-richest-woman-20120830,0,3323996.story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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