Do we have the wingers to play 4-4-2?

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Genuine question. The only other team I know playing a flat 4-4-2 like we do is Man United, and aside from having world class wingers its not even a flat one as Rooney usually drops down to MF as the 5th man.

 

How can we make the 4-4-2 work?

[Monroe Transfer 0]

Bit obsessed with this aren't you?

[Lake Bells tits 1]

you dont think its a valid question?

[sniffer 0]

As I've said before, I don't think Ba and Cisse can play together as a front two. Both are good players individually, but I don't think they complement each other like good striking partners should.

[JawD 99]

Of late I think we look much better as a 4-3-3 but I think jury is out in whether Ba is best for that left side. Mind iirc he was there when he got the goal v Spurs.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

As I've said before, I don't think Ba and Cisse can play together as a front two. Both are good players individually, but I don't think they complement each other like good striking partners should.

 

The problem is that they see eachother as competitors and as such they dont play well together. Clearly they want eachother to do well and are happy when the other striker score, but its quite obvious we are playing with two lone targetmen who both want to have the last toe on the ball.

 

Especially Ba who many times decided to shoot from poor positions rather than look for cisse who are even better than him at finding gaps in the box.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Apart from HBA,we have no one who goes past anyone with the ball.We have no one wide who ever goes past a full back and gets the ball in.You need a damn good midfiled player,or player in the hole,to creat decent chances, if you have no one wide doing the business. Get rid of Simpson and get Santon and Spiderman on the side they prefer,and get a left footer or two on the left,simply for balance as a starter.Beresford and Sellers were no world beaters but we had a lovely balance down the left.

[Christmas Tree 4669]

Marveaux in. Job done.

[Tooj 17]

Marveaux in. Job done.

Should he not get a few reserve games under his belt like you were demanding Ben Arfa did?

 

Was surprised we didn't use Marveaux more last Thursday. Everything seemed to be going down our right hand side which meant Marveaux had a really quiet game because of it.

[Park Life 71]

Think the classic and most dangerous 442 normally involves proper wingers and we don't really have any of sufficent quality. In the 442 system they become the link to the attack.

 

When the mf sits deep (as you might when away at Chelsea) there is a disconnect between the MF and the strikers. Cisse and Ba also make similar runs and take up similar zones which compounds the problem (Ba used to drop off a lot more).

 

It's no surprise then that our most dangerous and cogent phases of play happenned when Hatem wandered into the middle and linked up the moves or when Santon became a faux winger. It's no good going on about ManU as they've always had world class wingers in recent history and also one striker rotates into midfield (normally Rooney). So it's not a FLAT 442.

 

Last year it was apparent that Pards liked 442 cause of the extra protection it gave to the fullbacks. It was also apparent that Ba and Cisse fed very efficently off the chances they had in games. They both had red hot spells. They will have good spells again, but we need to create more credible chances for them this year as they are a known quantity now and sides have re-adjusted on how to deal with them. There is a much bigger microscope on us this year and teams we play will be better prepared.

 

However Pardew has done the majority of million things a manager has to think about right. We have come a long way if losing to the CL winners is a dissapointment.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Park Life

[aimaad22 4082]

Seems HBA can do the job but he isn't an out and out winger imo and would be at his devastating best in a free role behind the strikers.

 

As has been pointed out Jonas doesn't have the delivery. Hopefully Marveaux can do something for us this season. The likes of Ba and Cisse could do with a proper winger floating in balls from time to time. As has been mentioned defenders are vary of them now and we'll have to mix it up a bit more this season.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

I think what pardew rates above all else is defensive solidity. He is a pragmatist and reckons one of our big guns might pull something out of his sleeve, relying on individual brilliance to get the job done. Doesnt he leave most of the attacking stuff to carver anyway, on fridays? ( from the interview 9-10 months back).

 

As it stands 4-4-2 often results in huff-and-puff games where we just contain and play it back and forth with the odd long ball to ba and cisse.

 

As long as it gets us results I dont mind it at all but if we didnt have Ben arfa I shudder to think who else is capable of going past a man and opening up the game a bit. The answer is noone.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[Christmas Tree 4669]

Should he not get a few reserve games under his belt like you were demanding Ben Arfa did?

 

Was surprised we didn't use Marveaux more last Thursday. Everything seemed to be going down our right hand side which meant Marveaux had a really quiet game because of it.

 

Difference is Ben Arfa got several chances and clearly wasn't ready.

 

Marveaux looks totally calm on the ball already. Seems to have a great football brain for picking out the right pass and not losing possession.

 

Like to see him get a start in a 442 if we want to give Cisse and Ba better service.

 

443 a different kettle of fish although I thought he looked canny in the middle a few times in the last 15 against Chelsea.

 

HBA should have picked him out a few times when he was in great positions.

 

Really needs to get his chance now and then we can decide how fit he is.

[Christmas Tree 4669]

Think the classic and most dangerous 442 normally involves proper wingers and we don't really have any of sufficent quality. In the 442 system they become the link to the attack.

 

When the mf sits deep (as you might when away at Chelsea) there is a disconnect between the MF and the strikers. Cisse and Ba also make similar runs and take up similar zones which compounds the problem (Ba used to drop off a lot more).

 

It's no surprise then that our most dangerous and cogent phases of play happenned when Hatem wandered into the middle and linked up the moves or when Santon became a faux winger. It's no good going on about ManU as they've always had world class wingers in recent history and also one striker rotates into midfield (normally Rooney). So it's not a FLAT 442.

 

Last year it was apparent that Pards liked 442 cause of the extra protection it gave to the fullbacks. It was also apparent that Ba and Cisse fed very efficently off the chances they had in games. They both had red hot spells. They will have good spells again, but we need to create more credible chances for them this year as they are a known quantity now and sides have re-adjusted on how to deal with them. There is a much bigger microscope on us this year and teams we play will be better prepared.

 

However Pardew has done the majority of million things a manager has to think about right. We have come a long way if losing to the CL winners is a dissapointment.

 

Spot on last para.

[Christmas Tree 4669]

This in itself begs the question, if AC is to come back

 

are we going to start punting balls into the box for him and who will do it?

 

Barton back on a free?

[aimaad22 4082]

This in itself begs the question, if AC is to come back

 

are we going to start punting balls into the box for him and who will do it?

 

If only we had gotten Debuchy.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

too expensive, lets sign a dutch utility midfielder for 7 million instead.

[Dr Gloom 21756]

I don't think we've the central midfilders for it. Cabaye is our playmaker and looks way better in a 442 when he's further up the pitch. Ditto Ben arfa when he's wide in a front three rather than having to do loads of donkey work on the wing in a 442.

 

Jonas can play in equally well in both formations.

[Baggio 0]

The 4-4-2/4-3-3 talk is up there with the Pardew doing a poor job last season brigade.

 

Both boring and repetitive.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

So you are fine with 4-4-2 then? Happy with how it works? Simple question.

[Christmas Tree 4669]

The 4-4-2/4-3-3 talk is up there with the Pardew doing a poor job last season brigade.

 

Both boring and repetitive.

 

Not quite sure why its boring as we seem to be reverting between the two systems. Also quite fine to discuss which personnel suit which formation. In fact its the essence of why we all love football and talking about it so much.

 

Im always puzzled why people who are not interested in a thread dont simply just give it a wide berth.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Because its "cool" to just point to the league table and say pardew knows best.

 

Given the choice I`d like us to play nice fotball, and I believe we have the bodies to keep it on the ground alot and play a bit more like arsenal.

Would be very pleasing to the eyes that, and perhaps more effective too with our throng of french/continental players.

Before anyone asks, Id rather win ugly than lose classy ( FTM 9-1) - but I do believe we have yet to see the best of us.

 

I also dont think Ba+Cisse will ever work as they are both hornier for goals than J69 in a whorehouse - so I hope we bring in a different type of striker.

[Baggio 0]

So you are fine with 4-4-2 then? Happy with how it works? Simple question.

 

I've got no problem with it at all.

 

The same way I had no problem with it when we went on our great run at the beginning of last season, or when we beat Man Utd 3-0 at home or Chelsea 2-0 away.

 

I liken it to the Pardew situation last season as it seems like another one of those things that the more people keep on about something the more it gets pushed as fact and getting blown completely out of proportion, we played a handful of good games against average opponents with the 4-3-3 towards the end of last season and now its getting pushed as some sort of miracle system that we are awful if we don't use it.

 

Personally if I was manager I would go with a diamond formation in midfield with Ben Arfa having a free role behind the front two, the difference being I don't feel the need to go on about it every day and blame any problems on the team not playing the way I want them too constantly.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Baggio

[Lake Bells tits 1]

a flat 4-4-2 requires offensive wingers who provide forward movement and width though, if we use these wingers to provide cover for fullbacks instead there is going to be a massive distance up to the strikers. Where is the link-up?

 

Just cant see how we are able to create anything in such a system short of hoofing.

We saw it vs chelsea - once we got to the midfield line we were completely outnumbered and overrun.

probably one of their easier home wins season tbh. Reading gave them a much bigger fight.

 

we could do with a quality winger despite the holes in our squad in defence and up front.

 

Gutierrez looks more effective in the centre these days, and while I rate him as a key player for us, assists and goals are not his forte. Marveaux has not been injury-free for years, and we know all about Obertan's limitations. It means all the pressure rests on Ben Arfa's shoulders. We had a problem creating chances for much of last season despite finishing 5th, we were fortunate to have two strikers who had excellent spells where they were very clinical and we won a lot of even games because of better finishing. Tottenham last week was not so different. We rarely opened teams up and put them to the sword, even the weaker teams in the league.

 

In Jonas, Ben Arfa, Marveaux and Obertan we have 4 wingers which numerically is enough, so you could argue there is no justification to invest here. But I would say there are huge question marks over Marveaux and Obertan, and Jonas has looked very good central in a midfield three as he showed against Spurs. I would move on one of Marveaux or Obertan and replace them with a winger of first team quality, or at least a player who can change a game from the bench. Adam Johnson would have been an excellent signing in my view and I was disappointed to see him end up at the mackems.

 

Looking across our bench on Saturday against Chelsea, you could see we had nobody who could change the game or the way we play. Raylor for Simpson, Perch for Cabaye, Marveaux for Santon.

 

I realise it almost certainly won't happen because we need to replace Simpson or sign him up to a new deal, and we desperately need another forward. Seeing as we tend to play 4-3-3 and seeing as we need a striker, then a forward comfortable in that wide left (or wide right) role could fit the bill perfectly and allow us to play different systems, keep teams guessing and also keep Ba and Cisse on their toes (which Ameobi will never do). It is good that Pardew knows what his best XI is as not all managers do, but with the players he has he doesn't really have much scope to change the system if it is not working or when teams figure out how to stop us which in time they will unless we have options. There are some arguing that we finished 5th last season and therefore we don't need to change but I disagree, it's an unforgiving league for teams who stand still. I am not suggesting Freddy Shepherd transfers but there is a medium between that and giving your manager next to nothing.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[Baggio 0]

I didn't even read that because I just don't care, that's how boring I find you and the subject.