Park Life 71 Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) Nail on head parky. I wonder if the problem is the formation or the fact that neither cisse nor ba are good at link up? If its the latter then we need to reevaluate if we should be starting both or rather have 1 up top and have ben arfa working the channels perhaps? We end up in the same cyclical debate cause Pardew wants the full backs protected and won't play a narrow 433 (one incidentally in which Guti comes to life!) Pards has been successful with playing the percentage (no of balls forward to conversion ratio) so he won't change that and perhaps he shouldn't. I notice that Laudrup has the wingers tucking in as they break to make 3 forwards. We only have Hatem who can do that, Guti and Obertan don't have the game makeup to threaten in this manner. We might still be between 2 stools regarding our attacking play, but our general organisation is second to none thanks to Pards. In a lot of ways Cisse and Ba are too similar and like very similar start positions in the final attack phase. Ideally one should drop off but do these two have a good enough allround game? I don't think so. Ba has a terrible first touch and Cisse almost no inclination to link play whatsoever. Both of these are top tier finishers nothing more. It's proabably not pc to say it but I think Ba sulks when he is asked to play the AML/F role and drop off (which he has done adequately in the past). Personally with the acqusition of Anita (a really good player) I'd set up like this... .....................................Cisse................................ ...........Ba..............................................Hatem ...................................Cabaye............................... ................<----Anita/Guti................Tiote----->........................ The deep DM's protect the full back when we lose the ball and Ba and Hatem drop into midfield. Cabaye should be the withdrawn ghost playmaker/3rd midfielder who wanders. He is the link the key, he judges the game pattern and positions himself in accordance. He imo has the perfect pitch intelligence to do this. Hatem cuts in from the right and Ba from the left. When either do this the opp number makes the second striker. I suspect Pards isn't convinced by the def capabilty of either full back at this point so won't risk isolating them. In saying all that the team is light years ahead of where we were only a few years ago. Edited August 26, 2012 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake Bells tits 1 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I really hate the term "fullbacks protected". I know what you mean but its just such a negative mindset.... Why not worry the other team instead of letting it worry us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2207 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Just seen brief highlights. Am I the only one who thinks Torres obviously cheated for the peno? He was launching himself before he got near Anita who actually pulled his leg out of the way. If Anita touched him at all, it was incidental as Torres was diving anyway. If there was a panel for reviewing dissembling, I reckon Torres would have been done for that. His goal was class though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2207 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Apologies if the peno has been done to death earlier in the thread btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake Bells tits 1 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) It was a correct penalty won by a player looking for one. Rookie mistake by Anita Edited August 26, 2012 by Lake Bells tits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2207 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It was a correct penalty won by a player looking for one. Rookie mistake by Anita I don't blame the referee, at full speed it looked like a penalty. When you see it on the telly from behind it's obvious Torres is diving before he makes contact with Anita - if he made contact at all. As you say, Anita should've been wise to it but it's still cheating from Torres imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 I don't blame the referee, at full speed it looked like a penalty. When you see it on the telly from behind it's obvious Torres is diving before he makes contact with Anita - if he made contact at all. As you say, Anita should've been wise to it but it's still cheating from Torres imo. Torres is scum. Prancing about with his girly highlights and stamping his feet if he hasn't been given the perfect pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9432 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It was a correct penalty won by a player looking for one. Rookie mistake by Anita Cheating in other words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2207 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Cheating in other words Yes, it's cheating. He's set out to con the referee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake Bells tits 1 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Cheating in other words Doesnt matter, stick your leg out in the box like anita did and its a penalty. If this happened to one of ours we would be fuming at any other decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 as others have noted three points from these two league fixtures is a solid start to the season It's 25% less points than from the corresponding fixtures last season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2207 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Doesnt matter, stick your leg out in the box like anita did and its a penalty. If this happened to one of ours we would be fuming at any other decision. If one of our players had done that, I'd be disappointed. Genuinely. There's no difference between what Torres did and what Andy Carroll tried to do to us last season imo. Torres was diving before he got to Anita; I'm not sure Anita even touched him because he pulled his leg back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4769 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Ben arfa v man u ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7295 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I really hate the term "fullbacks protected". I know what you mean but its just such a negative mindset.... Why not worry the other team instead of letting it worry us. The answer to your question was in the Chelsea game. I do prefer that we try to play to best utilise our attacking players, but you have to appreciate the talents of opposing sides - particularly some of those with wage bills vastly in excess of ours. A fullback like Enrique would leave be with no concerns as he has the pace, strength and defensive prowess to not need the cover. At the moment we don't have that in either of our fullbacks. Santon is improving in high level terms (despite a relatively poor showing verse Chelsea) so hopefully we will have that from him soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7295 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 If one of our players had done that, I'd be disappointed. Genuinely. There's no difference between what Torres did and what Andy Carroll tried to do to us last season imo. Torres was diving before he got to Anita; I'm not sure Anita even touched him because he pulled his leg back. I agree, but the real cause of the problem is FIFA and in this case the English FA who don't retrospectively deal with simulation. The application of the rules is such that players increase their chance of getting decisions in their favour when they overplay contact. In cases like this where the player anticipates the contact and reacts prior to it actually happening it's particularly annoying. Gerrard is a bandit for that style of milking it - probably tried to teach Carroll. Very seldom is there a negative reaction from a referee for that variety of simulation. Basically the reward is great and the risk is minimal and therefore it will continue. It was a penalty though unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9432 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Doesnt matter, stick your leg out in the box like anita did and its a penalty. If this happened to one of ours we would be fuming at any other decision. The contact was with the leg that was being withdrawn, oh aye it was a penalty "won" by today's standards, doesn't make it sit well with me. Contact doesn't necessarily mean a foul, used to be contact sufficient to bring someone down, those days are long gone and the game is absolutely the worse for it. About the only player you see regularly practice the near dead art of riding a tackle these days is Messi, (and I fucking love him for it) yet they all used to do it, falling over was usually because you couldn't physically stay upright. Can't understand it tbh, if someone goes to ground and slightly catches you, try and stay on your fucking feet, the guy's on the deck and out of the game. How many times do you see someone "win a freekick" through minimal contact when there's acres of space in front of them (had they stayed upright), the fuckers even do it in/around the box when if they stayed upright they may actually have a shot on. Drives me nuts. Was a point second half yesterday when HBA "stayed on his feet", bang on the edge of the box, with more contact that Torres got from Anita. He should have gone down, terrible thing to say but true (that said Dowd wouldn't have given it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Even though the game has clearly changed a lot in this regard, and I would fully expect a review panel to back Dowd's decision, I really can't see how you can penalise a player for touching another player who is already mid flight as Torres was. There's so much lingo used to justify diving now - 'anticipation', 'contact' 'he's entitled to go down' 'drawing the foul' etc etc. A dive is a dive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 9432 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Even though the game has clearly changed a lot in this regard, and I would fully expect a review panel to back Dowd's decision, I really can't see how you can penalise a player for touching another player who is already mid flight as Torres was. There's so much lingo used to justify diving now - 'anticipation', 'contact' 'he's entitled to go down' 'drawing the foul' etc etc. A dive is a dive. The ones that piss me off no end are "he won the foul" or "he was clever there", no he didn't/wasn't, he cheated. That argument is long lost though, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke 2 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Spot on. FIFA/FAs have ruined the game in this regard through their effective legalisation of diving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADP 0 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 The contact was with the leg that was being withdrawn, oh aye it was a penalty "won" by today's standards, doesn't make it sit well with me. Contact doesn't necessarily mean a foul, used to be contact sufficient to bring someone down, those days are long gone and the game is absolutely the worse for it. About the only player you see regularly practice the near dead art of riding a tackle these days is Messi, (and I fucking love him for it) yet they all used to do it, falling over was usually because you couldn't physically stay upright. Can't understand it tbh, if someone goes to ground and slightly catches you, try and stay on your fucking feet, the guy's on the deck and out of the game. How many times do you see someone "win a freekick" through minimal contact when there's acres of space in front of them (had they stayed upright), the fuckers even do it in/around the box when if they stayed upright they may actually have a shot on. Drives me nuts. Was a point second half yesterday when HBA "stayed on his feet", bang on the edge of the box, with more contact that Torres got from Anita. He should have gone down, terrible thing to say but true (that said Dowd wouldn't have given it). To get them sent off, or at least booked. Agree with what you say like. Sad state of affairs and should be clamped down on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerbarton 24 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Apologies if the point has already been raised, but if Debuchy doesn't sign what do we think about sticking Raylor in the team at right back. We're all aware of his limitations defensively but the quality of our set pieces (corners in particular) have been consistently dreadful. When Raylor came on yesterday we immediately saw two great deliveries that could (and in Cisse's case) should have led to a goal. When we play with the more fluid 4-3-3 we also have a lot of room out on the right, with the full back often coming infield to cover the roaming Ben Arfa, and it doesn't seem to me that Simmo is capable of taking advantage of this. I think Debuchy would be a fantastic addition in this respect but Raylor is capable of putting a good cross in too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene_Clark 12 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 We'll grow into this season as players find their fitness and Pardew sorts the formation. 4-4-2 isn't for us but a Hatem free role should be the way to go. Him and Carver will crack it. Keep the faith. No shame losing to Chelsea away. Get a win on Thursday and do Villa. Sorted. agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themags 0 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Probably a penalty but annoying as fuck. I'd prefer it years ago when you were fouled for a penalty. A player winning a penalty is shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake Bells tits 1 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) but you have to appreciate the talents of opposing sides - particularly some of those with wage bills vastly in excess of ours. A fullback like Enrique would leave be with no concerns as he has the pace, strength and defensive prowess to not need the cover. At the moment we don't have that in either of our fullbacks. Santon is improving in high level terms (despite a relatively poor showing verse Chelsea) so hopefully we will have that from him soon. Well Joe cole is on 110.000 grand a week, Joey barton is on what - 80? Swansea absolutely rinced Arsenal and a few other top-4 clubs last season while being paid peanuts. Chelsea aside from Hazard didnt impress me at all - we just gave them far too much respect and time on the ball. Fullbacks are relatively cheap to buy and if we dont have ones who can handle a bit of heat on their own, then what the fuck are they doing in our first 11. Being stuck with Simpson through 4 transfer windows even though he constantly needs nanny`ing is just unfuckingbelieveable. EIther tell him to sort it out or replace him with someone who can. He is dragging the whole right side and team down with his inability to cover his own fucking position. Santon is better going forward but has huge issues defensibly as well. With williamson sniffing around a CB spot our defense looks 1 injury away from being in shambles for yet another season. Transfer window are turning into a farce sadly. Sorry for the rant. Edited August 26, 2012 by Lake Bells tits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7295 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Intentionally said 'some' of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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