Our Current Tactics.

[Happy Face 29]

 

Not everything has to be about Jonas

 

You mentioned him in the OP and then pointedly left him out of yourr 4-4-2.

 

Our third most senior player....replaced by a reserve with 1 game under his belt.

 

Not everything has to be about Jonas...but this thread was.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

My problem with jonas is that the left side turns into a 2x left back situation which means they dont have to leave anyone back there since jonas is deep and also quite slow.

So you instantly create a situation where you have a right wing and RB bombing down the right flank constantly and no link up available for breaks...

 

For comparison, deploy HBA on the other flank and tell him to hover around the midfield line and the other team HAS to at least keep 1-2 back there just to babysit him ( and that wont be enough either )

[Christmas Tree 4839]

Jonas is in the first team on merit.

 

As far as the system goes, 433 seems to suit us better. But if we play that way there's an argument for only playing one of Ba or Cisse and playing two natural wide men with one line striker.

 

I wondered about one of Ba or Cisses but when you see the goal Ba scored out of nothing against Spurs or Cisse against Chelsea, it's hard to imagine anyone else doing what they did from wide positions.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

You have to start them both. The question is if we use Jonas as a left wide or not.

For me Id start Anita and Tiote, Cabaye out left to cut in and spray passes and shots, while having Santon behind him bombing up and down as a box-to-box fullback.

If we need more goals by 50-60 minutes hoy in marveaux for either anita or Tiote.

 

 

Its a more offensive formation but arent we supposed to start dominating a bit rather than protect protect protect?

[Christmas Tree 4839]

 

You mentioned him in the OP and then pointedly left him out of yourr 4-4-2.

 

Our third most senior player....replaced by a reserve with 1 game under his belt.

 

Not everything has to be about Jonas...but this thread was.

 

I mentioned him by saying "very good first teamer on the bench". Hardly Jonas bashing.

 

As for seniority that as is constantly proven, means nothing.

 

Not so long ago half this board wanted Harper to stay on over Krul.

 

And with regard to Marveaux he's hardly your average "reserve". He's a proven quality player who has had injury problems.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

According to Carver there is very little between Marveaux and Ben Arfa in training.

Brilliant player. I rate him above Jonas already from what Ive seen.

 

I agree with CT here, we need to let this seniority thing go.

 

Same drivel about Williamson and Simpson playing alot last year so that makes them Top-5 quality surely?

 

 

A team will have passengers simple as. Jonas` graft is occationally very nice to have to break up play - I`d start him vs City for instance.

On most days though, we would benefit from a more explosive winger.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[Kitman 2207]

Jonas was class against Spurs imo. Marveaux will get his chance sooner or later but I wouldn't drop Jonas for him atm

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Doesnt have to drop him like - but isnt it a good thing if we rotate abit? Fergie style... Jonas does not profit from being played week in week out..

[Kitman 2207]

I think Pardew sees Jonas as an ever present. I doubt he'll rotate him unless he has to. Marveaux's best bet is to come in though injury or a sub and play his way into being first pick. imo.

[Dr Gloom 22175]

I wondered about one of Ba or Cisses but when you see the goal Ba scored out of nothing against Spurs or Cisse against Chelsea, it's hard to imagine anyone else doing what they did from wide positions.

 

not his natural position though is it?

 

i think he could make it work. he scores goals and is less of a natural lone striker than cisse - seems to prefer making runs from deeper areas. but i wonder if a more natural wide player would be better suited to that position.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Dr Gloom

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Ba and Cisse both strike me as clinical finishers inside the 20y box. Having them both there makes for a right nightmare for defenders.

Just need wingers able to service them properly

[OTF 7492]

There's more to a players involvement than out and out attack, some people here proving and re-proving their lack of understanding.

[BigWalrus 0]

Football isn't all about "end-product".

 

One of the biggest elements of modern day football is being able to last the game and manage the lactic acid build up. In Jonas, we have someone who either wins a free kick, keeps the ball or passes it to a team mate. He relieves the pressure massively and means we are less demanding on the rest of the team.

 

Of course it would be exciting having a pacy winger beating his man and taking players on all the time, but then you need to have bodies bombing forward to support them...which leads to tiredness, fatigue, loss of concentration, mistakes, higher chance of injury and the conceding of late goals.

 

Keeping the ball and making the opposition chase it is absolutely pivotal to sustained success and we'd be absolutely mad to drop Jonas.

 

The old line reeled out by pundits of, "NUFC fans are some of the most knowledgeable in football" always makes me laugh.

Edited August 22, 2012 by BigWalrus

[Lake Bells tits 1]

So unless you rate Jonas you lack a basic understanding of fotball? Alright.

 

There are alot of wooly adjectives thrown around when it comes to Gutierrez, "industry", "graft" etc...

The cold hard fact is that he is good at keeping the ball and getting freekicks - not so much when it comes to ( I will avoid referring to it as endproduct if that expression grates on some of you)

good crosses, good shots, clever forward passes and the like.

 

He works hard yes, so does Kuyt and so does Obertan. Yes there is more to a winger than end product but fuck me if it isnt handy once in a while to have someone on the flank who actually represents a threat.

 

Good wingers are usually as sought after as hot pies come matchday in todays transfer market, so its baffling how window after window noone is worried one bit about bids for jonas and not even a whiff of a rumour regarding clubs who are interested in him. Why, if he is such an invaluable member and has so much to offer?

Edited August 22, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[Christmas Tree 4839]

Aye, this "if you don't love Jonas you know nowt" is infantile tbh.

 

Anyway, I much prefer us to play the 433 the majority of the time and only change it if, IF we have to. I think we are at the stage where we have enough about us, particularly in attack, to worry less about others and let them worry about us.

 

I think this will be an interesting year to see how Pardew copes with the demands of players v's formations and winning while keeping everyone happy.

 

Of course Europe and Injuries will take care of some of that.

[StellarStripes 0]

I'd like to see us use both formations as we did against Spurs. Versitility is important. Being able to mix it up depending on who we are playing and who both teams have available.

 

442 is more rigid and tends to lead to a more disciplined and organised performance but you do sacrifice attacking impetus where as 433 is far more fluid, far more expensive and leads to us playing much better football but in that we have to hope Ba will be happy and do a good job on the left which he did do against Spurs.

 

Like i and many others have said, we will see variants of both the 442 and 433 but one thing i would like to see is us play a 4231. One striker (Cisse), two attacking wingers (HBA +Jonas/Marveaux) and Cabaye further up the pitch infront of two ball winning solid CM's (Anita and Tiote).

 

So i expect we could see 3 formations this season.

 

----------------- Krul

-Simpson Saylor Coloccini Santon.................Raylor (LB/RB), Perch (RB/LB/CB) and Williamson (CB).

---Barfa Cabaye Tiote Jonas...................Obertan (RM), Marveaux (LM), Amalfitano (RM/LM), Anita, Bigirimana, Abeid, Gosling and Vuckic all CM.

---------------Ba Cisse......................................Shola and Sameobi (CF).

 

------------------Krul

-Simpson Saylor Coloccini Santon................Raylor (LB/RB), Perch (RB/LB/CB) and Williamson (CB).

--------Anita Cabaye Tiote............................Gosling, Bigirimana, Abeid and Vuckic (CM).

------Barfa Cisse Ba...........................Shola and Sameobi (CF).

 

------------------ Krul

-Simpson Saylor Coloccini Santon...............Raylor (LB/RB), Perch (RB/LB/CB) and Williamson (CB).

------------- Anita Tiote....................................Bigirimana, Perch and Gosling (CDM).

-Barfa Cabaye Jonas.................Obertan (AMR), Marveaux (AML), Amalfitano (AMR/L), Sameobi (AML), Vuckic and Abeid (AMC).

------------------Cisse.......................................Ba and Shola (CF).

 

Clearly shows that we have a competant squad with lots of options in 3 different systems. Also shows that aside from wanting and upgrage on Simpson, we REALLY need at least one quality striker through the doors.

Edited August 22, 2012 by StellarStripes

[BigWalrus 0]

It's not about "if you don't love Jonas you know nowt".

 

It's about understanding his role in the team and understanding that there is nobody else who does what he does. There seems to be some idea that Jonas doesn't add anything to the team and we should just whack in as many flair players as possible.

 

We have Tiote in front of defence and we have Cabaye linking midfield with attack. However, Cabaye plays his game at breakneck speed and is usually blowing out of his arse 4 or 5 times a game.

 

Jonas covers every blade of grass, supporting both full backs and the entire midfield.

 

It may be that, in time, Anita becomes that player, but if anyone can tell that from a cameo on Saturday then they must be psychic.

[Meenzer 15731]

It may be that, in time, Anita becomes that player, but if anyone can tell that from a cameo on Saturday then they must be psychic.

 

People have decided Marveaux is the new Ginola based on similar game time. What can you do, eh?

[Lake Bells tits 1]

If you start with both Anita AND Tiote, that surely has to be enough steel in midfield?

 

Anita is way faster, and way younger. What you are describing isnt a winger role, its a Defensive midfielder - which is kind of my point.

he plays that role from a wing position, causing zero threat.

 

Yes he covers alot of ground but he is rarely able to go past players anymore. Id like us to have DMs doing DM duties, and wingers doing wing duty.

Jonas has become some sort of weird Wing-DM hybrid protecting other players - I appreciate it and it has its uses but I dont see it as a good solution when we are facing poorer teams.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

People have decided Marveaux is the new Ginola based on similar game time. What can you do, eh?

 

Well, people were using this very arguement when Pardew started Obertan over HBA... from what (little, granted) we have seen Marveaux is a brilliant fotballer.

Dont you want to see more?

[Meenzer 15731]

from what (little, granted) we have seen Marveaux is a brilliant fotballer.

Dont you want to see more?

 

I wouldn't say brilliant. I'd say he looks promising, so yes, I'd like to see more but I wouldn't advocate building a team around him just yet.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

I didnt say building a team around him either

 

But if Obertan is given a run of games, marveaux should definately be given the odd starter here and there, Jonas isnt getting any younger and could use a rest now and then.

[Meenzer 15731]

Jonas isnt getting any younger and could use a rest now and then.

 

Aye, that's fair enough. We're only one game into the season mind.

[BigWalrus 0]

Marveaux hasn't looked brilliant in any of the league games I've seen. He's looked pacey, but also a bit lightweight.

 

What I do know is that he's injury prone and managed to make about 6 or 7 appearances for us last season (most of them as sub). He probably would have played more if he wasn't injured.

If you start with both Anita AND Tiote, that surely has to be enough steel in midfield?

 

Anita is way faster, and way younger. What you are describing isnt a winger role, its a Defensive midfielder - which is kind of my point.

he plays that role from a wing position, causing zero threat.

 

Yes he covers alot of ground but he is rarely able to go past players anymore. Id like us to have DMs doing DM duties, and wingers doing wing duty.

Jonas has become some sort of weird Wing-DM hybrid protecting other players - I appreciate it and it has its uses but I dont see it as a good solution when we are facing poorer teams.

 

Why does anyone need to go past players? Arsenal, in their prime, were one of the most breathtakingly brilliant teams to watch. Their football was quick, fluid and clever - but their players rarely took anyone on or skipped over challenges. It's all about ball control and being able to pass your way through and around teams. Jonas excels here, keeping possession whilst under pressure, whilst constantly moving the ball forwards.

 

How can you be so sure that Anita, as an out and out DM, is going to be able to adequately carry out this role?

 

The game has changed over the last decade. Unless you're playing in League One or you're Martin O'Neill, there isn't really such a thing as a winger any more. It's a right / left midfielder, keeping the ball and allowing the team to move forward as a unit. Having someone who can hold the ball while the team advances forward is priceless and explains why Keegan loved him, Hughton loved him and Pardew loves him. There is no room in the modern game for the Keith Gillespie type player.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

Let me just start by saying that those are all valid points. Although I find the premise that there is no point to go past players a bit mental You stretch the other teams defence by doing it as they need another player to come and meet you.

 

I do disagree that Jonas excels at passing the ball forwards - its my very problem with him. If he in addition to grafting and keeping posession had a keen offensive passing foot we would not be having this discussion at all.

Having wingers being able to go past people isnt a must, but if they cant then they should at least be able to provide good delivery. Jonas doesnt in my opinion.

 

In regards to Anita, he is highly rated by fans and ajax - there are no certainties but I`d say he has a good chance of becoming that player.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Lake Bells tits