Punishment fitting the crime. (or not)

[Guest CabayeAye]

Just execute everyone who is religious and let theirs gods decide.

[The Fish 10857]

I am delighted I have read this.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

The circumstances are always different, so the verdicts invariably also will be.

If you lock people up for life you risk having a system who becomes crimogenic - it breeds crime rather than reduces it.

The purpose of a prison and/or a penalty is twofold; To adequately punish for it to have a rehabilitating effect so that you wont do it again, and to protect society from you until you have served your sentence.

 

The incarceration is the penalty, the prison itself shouldnt be. Id rather we keep our faith in humans to improve themselves and dish out sentences who are tailored for them to become functioning citizens again rather than lock them in and toss away the key as they are a lost cause.

[Monkeys Fist 42428]

I have to say I agree there Salty.

We are miles away from anything like that though.

[Lake Bells tits 1]

The current justice system ( here in norway anyway ,but it sounds like UK is broadly similar) is not tailored with repeat offenders in mind.

Most of the scrotes are tossed out on the streets again too soon. American repeat offenders find themselves looking at 20 year sentences the third time they commit a crime - so I guess they sort of adress the issue.

But then again they have 1% of their population locked up so Im not sure if their model is perfect either...

 

I believe one of the biggest challenges is having a legal system that both deals with travellers/organized crime in a way that doesnt leave them laughing when the verdict is read, but at the same time allows people who make a mistake a way back into society. Bit of an oxymoron when the law is supposed to be equal for all.

 

Of cource you could just start hacking off limbs for theft and various crimes like they do in the middle east and various asian countries, that probably WILL work, but Im not sure if I want to live in such a society - hardly progress is it.

So the legal system isnt perfect, but its the best we have come up with so far.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Lake Bells tits

[JawD 99]

Give them a chance, rehabilitate them. Blah blah.

 

Do it once, fine bang them up and then give them one more chance. After that, fuck them.

 

How many times do we hear of someone getting out and reoffending immediately.

 

Personally I'd bring back capital punishment for crimes involving murder. I'd then remove all privileges for then next tier down of crime.

 

I don't want prison to be an inconvenience, I'd want even the hardest of men to be scared to be put in there.

 

I mean come on, just how hard is it to be a decent human and live by reasonable laws?

 

Extreme it may be, but ask someone who had their child murdered if I'm wrong.

[Monkeys Fist 42428]

I don't agree with the death sentence JawD , the only people you are really punishing there are the murderer's family. Why make two families suffer the pain of losing a loved one?

I have no problem with your hard labour idea- making prison a true deterrent/punishment for the worst crimes, murder, rape etc.

 

I don't really have all the answers , but I don't think the death penalty is an answer.

[JawD 99]

No I dont have the answers and I've not thought it thoroughly. You make a fair point about their family tbf. Bring back chain gangs tbh. Get all these pot holes in roads fixed as well.

 

Still, whats the point of jailing someone for 30 years for murder. Their family lose them anyway and what about the family of the victim?

 

Actually, maybe tie up the murderer and let the family "talk" to them for 10mins.

[wolfy 12]

There is no exact answer to dealing with murderers and sex fiends but making a system where the punishment actually does fit the crime is a massive step in the right direction, IF, it was ever gonna be fair, which it never will be.

 

It's easy for any of us to say the death penalty is not the answer but would we say that if one of our family was the victim of a murderer.

The only problem with a death sentence is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. Years ago this was probably a massive problem...but today it shouldn't be any problem as long as the evidence is 100% water tight.

 

The trouble with the justice system is greedy lawyers and dragged along court cases where the outcome hinges on how smooth the lawyer is and not whether the criminal is guilty or not.

 

The OJ Simpson case is one example.

 

If you murder someone for gain or out of hate, then, if found guilty, you should be executed.

 

If you murder anyone whether young or old, you lose your right to live as far as I'm concerned.

[Renton 21621]

Can someone provide me with a coherent argument for us to bring back capital punishment?

 

Is it a deterrent? No.

Does it bring back the deceased or comfort their family? No.

Does it save society money? No.

Does it debase socierty. Yes (imo).

Can irretrievable miscarriages of justice happen. Yes, obviously.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Renton

[Monkeys Fist 42428]

…It's easy for any of us to say the death penalty is not the answer but would we say that if one of our family was the victim of a murderer.

The only problem with a death sentence is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. Years ago this was probably a massive problem...but today it shouldn't be any problem as long as the evidence is 100% water tight.

 

The trouble with the justice system is greedy lawyers and dragged along court cases where the outcome hinges on how smooth the lawyer is and not whether the criminal is guilty or not.

 

 

Sorry to piss on your chips Wolfy, but the answer to your first line is yes.

I lost my younger brother to a murderer in 2007, and it didn't change my opinion that the death penalty is wrong.

When we had it, it didn't act as a deterrent, people still committed murder.

The only justification for it is revenge tbh, and that's medieval thinking IMO.

 

I must admit though, as JawD suggested, I did ask the officer in charge for 5 minutes with his killer ( they had him in custody within 24 hrs of the killing).

He said nothing would make him happier than to let me, but of course he couldn't allow it.

Glad he didn't really, as I'd have blood on my hands.

 

The second point Renton makes above is the thing for me.

All we wanted then , and now , was to have him back with us.

His killer was jailed for a minimum of 17 years, I saw him go away, and I can honestly say I very rarely think about him ( the killer).

His family expressed their total sympathy and remorse to us, I see no reason they should also suffer for his actions.

 

(See, this what having a view and giving reasons for it is like Wolfy, you should try it )

[wolfy 12]

Can someone provide me with a coherent argument for us to bring back capital punishment?

 

Is it a deterrent? No...........YES

Does it bring back the deceased or comfort their family? No...............Won't bring back the deceased but it would comfort many families if the murderer was executed, of that I have no qualms about.

Does it save society money? No..........It would save plenty of money if a convicted murderer 100% guilty was executed quickly.

Does it debase socierty. Yes (imo).......... I don't see how, unless it was a public execution.

Can irretrievable miscarriages of justice happen. Yes, obviously.......Yes they can and is why I said only execute those that are 100% nailed on as the killer. Many convictions are weak and some convictions are set ups in my opinion but that's always been the case and would be no different whether the death penalty was in force or not.

[Renton 21621]

I never knew that MF, you have my condolences. So glad you were able to live your life afterwards without it eating you up, must have been awful though.

[Gejon 2]

I never knew that MF, you have my condolences. So glad you were able to live your life afterwards without it eating you up, must have been awful though.

[Renton 21621]

Btw, ironic that wolfy as a conspiracist believes any crime can be proven 100% true. Never is this the case, just like in science nothing is 100% falsifiable. This fact makes execution in the USA VERY expensive. No evidence of deterrence either, none whatsoever. I like our judicial and penal systems, simply the best in the world.

[wolfy 12]

Btw, ironic that wolfy as a conspiracist believes any crime can be proven 100% true. Never is this the case, just like in science nothing is 100% falsifiable. This fact makes execution in the USA VERY expensive. No evidence of deterrence either, none whatsoever. I like our judicial and penal systems, simply the best in the world.

I don't believe any crime can be proven 100%.

 

I also never said science is 100% falsified either.

 

Our judicial and penal system are the best in the world but not for punishment. They are the best in the world for the criminal because they favour the criminal and rarely the victim.

[Renton 21621]

I don't believe any crime can be proven 100%.

 

I also never said science is 100% falsified either.

 

Our judicial and penal system are the best in the world but not for punishment. They are the best in the world for the criminal because they favour the criminal and rarely the victim.

 

..........It would save plenty of money if a convicted murderer 100% guilty was executed quickly.

 

So do they have to be 100% guilty or not?

 

Which country's legal system do you prefer?

[CleeToonFan 1]

 

 

 

 

So do they have to be 100% guilty or not?

 

Which country's legal system do you prefer?

Saudi Arabia

[wolfy 12]

So do they have to be 100% guilty or not?

 

Which country's legal system do you prefer?

Whichever countries legal system makes the punishment fit the crime. If none such exist, then they should, which would favour the victims from whatever crime is done against them or their families, meaning people actually get the justice they crave for rather than weak justice.

[The Fish 10857]

Whichever countries legal system makes the punishment fit the crime. If none such exist, then they should, which would favour the victims from whatever crime is done against them or their families, meaning people actually get the justice they crave for rather than weak justice.

Answer the other question.

[wolfy 12]

Answer the other question.

What other question.

[The Fish 10857]

What other question.

 

You know, the other one, not the one you answered, the one you didn't, of the two questions posed by Renton, the one that went without reply,

 

So do they have to be 100% guilty or not?

 

Which country's legal system do you prefer?

 

Jesus christ wolfy, you really are fucking dense aren't you?

[wolfy 12]

You know, the other one, not the one you answered, the one you didn't, of the two questions posed by Renton, the one that went without reply,

 

 

 

Jesus christ wolfy, you really are fucking dense aren't you?

I've already answered the question earlier in the thread. Have a look for it.

[The Fish 10857]

I've already answered the question earlier in the thread. Have a look for it.

 

You've stated that "no crime can be proven 100%" and that Murders can be 100% proven guilty.

 

These two statements are mutually exclusive, they cannot both be true.

 

so which is it wolfy?

[Monkeys Fist 42428]

I never knew that MF, you have my condolences. So glad you were able to live your life afterwards without it eating you up, must have been awful though.

Cheers gents.

It's one of those things you know happens on an all too regular basis , but you never expect it to happen to your family.

When it does, it's numbing, literally numbing. I was in a daze for day or two, and things happened so quickly.

It happened at my Mother's house, where he lived, so we couldn't get in for over a week, my mother went into Rake Lane with chest pains the same day and was kept in for 3-4 days. Stressful time.

I was the family contact for the Police, so any information from them came to me. ( I have to say they were excellent in their dealings with us, the same two officers from start to the end result in court. ). The first time I actually cried was when they gave me the autopsy results. I'd been running on automatic pilot until then, but I think the brutality of it hit then when it was laid out in black and white.

He was attacked from behind 5 times to the back of his head with a meat cleaver, losing two fingers as he tried to defend himself, then stabbed 22 times in the back with a kitchen knife, one of them piercing his heart.

Brutal and cowardly.

Thing is though, you deal with it. You have too.

When his killer appeared at Shields Magistrates to be formally charged etc, I wanted to see him, see who this monster was, look him in the eye and that.

As soon as I saw him, I knew he'd have the worst time possible in jail. He was overweight, unfit and had a weird , squeaky voice. I knew then that he'd suffer for what he did, and put him to one side in my mind.

I barely think about him now.