ewerk 30610 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Trying to persuade an American not to take literally an archaic text that was written for very different circumstances? Good luck with that. Well you were right, I honestly thought he'd use a different defence but apparently they do need to retain the ability to raise a militia and spill the blood of tyrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Brixton is an area of gang crime, of illegal gun possession, of all kinds of things that would worry a fella. I used to live there, never felt the need to carry a gun, a knife or anything more dangerous than a scowl. Whenever I went to a gig, I didn't feel a greater risk of gunshot trauma. More likely to get hit by a car from what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15526 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Just another thing, you've brought up abortion and so called "pro-life" a couple of times. That's a sticky wicket I'd recommend steering well clear of. I disagree. American Idol is such a last-decade reference anyway, even Scandal is beating it in the ratings these days. Maybe there is some hope after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 To be fair to Graing, his comments come from a situation that is entirely different to ours. He may well be right that by making guns available in the first place, the US has opened a Pandora's box that, if it attempts to close, will likely result in short/medium term increases in crime (as criminals will be the last to hand their weapons in, and will be immediately empowered as the rest of the country does so). This makes it different from us simply saying we wouldn't introduce them as they kill people. I still think I'd argue that the long term benefits are higher with gun eradication, but at the same time, we have no idea how long it would take to remove them from circulation in any meaningful way, what the effects of doing so would be in less well policed areas, or even to what extent the likely resurgent black market for prohibited guns would be able to circumvent many of the controls. Despite your first sentence you're still not thinking of it like a merkin. To a large majority of them this isn't about the practicalities or about self-defence, it's simply about their natural born right to own guns. It goes to the very core of what a lot of people believe and as a result the NRA are one of the most influential pressure groups in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausman 0 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I'd love to see the Finnish way of doing things, concerning guns. First of all you have to belong to a hunting or gun club. Before you can purchase a gun or rifle, you have to do exams, written and practical. For the practical you have to have a 85% kill rate, able to skin an animal properly all guns have to be kept at the club except if your a farmer then they have to be kept under lock and key at all times. They are regularly checked by the police for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15526 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Yes but LIBERTY AND FREEDOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADP 0 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) Guns are a phallic-like reinforcement of masculinity for backwards people. Discuss... Edited April 8, 2014 by ADP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graing 15 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) Took Australia 4 weeks to enforce their gun legislation. Look, Graing, I look at the rest of the Western World, with all their liberties and their gun legislation and I don't worry for their liberty or their safety. You speak of "taking a risk" by going to a concert or a Hockey game. That one sentence sums up the issue. You anticipate a greater risk of gun violence. This is understandable because your country has lots of guns on the streets, one in the wrong hands can cause mayhem. I don't believe putting 500 around that one bad one would stop death by gunshot wound. Do you? Brixton is an area of gang crime, of illegal gun possession, of all kinds of things that would worry a fella. I used to live there, never felt the need to carry a gun, a knife or anything more dangerous than a scowl. Whenever I went to a gig, I didn't feel a greater risk of gunshot trauma. Just another thing, you've brought up abortion and so called "pro-life" a couple of times. That's a sticky wicket I'd recommend steering well clear of. Well Fish, I was speaking of taking a risk there because I was stupid and put myself in a bad situation. I outsmarted myself, arriving around 6:00 or so and finding a back lot that was cheaper and away from traffic instead of across the street at the higher priced stadium lot. It dawned on me as I left the concert close to midnight and had to walk a few blocks off the beaten path that it may not have been the brightest idea. I was mad at myself for not being more prudent and thinking ahead. I think you missed the part though where I said I didn't and don't feel the need to carry. My point was that I would not begrudge someone that felt they did need to. Not sure what your point is about Brixton actually. You never felt you needed a gun despite the fact that some bad boy yardies might have illegal guns. Is this because you feel that there is just a lower occurence of criminals having guns there? I would agree. Do you feel it is because the criminals might be more "civilized" there and averse to shooting you as opposed to the savages here? I might agree again. Do you feel it's because your law enforcement is in much better control and will provide for your security much more effectively there than in a place like Detroit? I would agree there as well. Do you feel you're bullet-proof? That's the only one I would disagree with. As for having 500 folks with guns to deal with 1 criminal, I don't know that this type of hyperbole is constructive here. Maybe that's partially my fault. I mentioned the screening, database, etc. to purchase a gun. In addition to that, there is training, certification and licsensing - including fingerprinting and extensive background checking - if you want to have a permit to actually carry a gun. If you are caught with a weapon and not having the proper permit, you are in for some serious grief with Johnny Law. It's just not as cartoonish and pervasive as you make it out to be. Would I be an advocate of getting guns off the street in general? Absolutely. Here's the problem : I would say to the criminals - with a glance at the law enforcement responsible for our safety in lieu of such self protection - you first. It's a Utopian proposition that has very little basis in reality (short of a totalitarian police state type of enforcement and round up). Again, this is an issue that resides, by and large, in pockets of America. High crime areas in some major cities and southern border towns for the most part. And there are factors that contribute to this. It's a multi-faceted problem with no easy solutions. I can speak for Detroit, but the same holds true for many of these hot spots. Detroit has been in decline for years. The auto industry took a beating a decade ago (and it does in cycles) and businesses started moving out of the city. This was coupled with mismanagement and corruption by city officials. The last mayor and city council members are (or were) serving time for graft, bribes and fleecing the city in general. The last police chief was also more concerned about which of his junior officers he could bed than response times to calls. With tax revenue down from fleeing businesses and money stolen by city officials, there's not as much left over to fund a robust police and emergency force. Response times went through the roof for 911 call and calls to paramedics. And the cycle feeds itself. As you may or not know, the city actually had to declare bankruptcy and is still trying to work its way out of it. In an environment like that, the criminal element absolutely thrives. They also know that response times are up and the police force is seriously undermanned. The criminal element in the city is getting bolder and bolder. There are many car jackings, holdups, etc. Most end badly. I can tell you a dozen stories from the past couple of weeks. But to pin this all on an inanimate object is madness. This is a societal rot due to incompetence, corruption, etc. The criminals are opportunists in that situation. Now to say that folks that have to deal with that situation should not be able to defend themselves when they know the police force will not respond in a timely manner and the criminals have become more and more brazen is pure folly. Now I've been fairly candid and have been trying to have an honest discussion with you. I have come in on your side and agreed with you on a couple of points. I have to say I appreciate the fact that you seem to be interested in having a genuine dialogue for the most part. I'll heed your advice as well. I've taken enough of a kicking on this topic (and I'm the uncivilized one ). I know that you lot can barely tolerate a 'dumb yank' trying to pretend to talk football let alone involve himself in political, philosophical or sociological discussions. So pardon, and cheers mate. Edited April 8, 2014 by Graing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Well Fish, I was speaking of taking a risk there because I was stupid and put myself in a bad situation. I outsmarted myself, arriving around 6:00 or so and finding a back lot that was cheaper and away from traffic instead of across the street at the higher priced stadium lot. It dawned on me as I left the concert close to midnight and had to walk a few blocks off the beaten path that it may not have been the brightest idea. I was mad at myself for not being more prudent and thinking ahead. I think you missed the part though where I said I didn't and don't feel the need to carry. My point was that I would not begrudge someone that felt they did need to. Not sure what your point is about Brixton actually. You never felt you needed a gun despite the fact that some bad boy yardies might have illegal guns. Is this because you feel that there is just a lower occurence of criminals having guns there? I would agree. Do you feel it is because the criminals might be more "civilized" there and averse to shooting you as opposed to the savages here? I might agree again. Do you feel it's because your law enforcement is in much better control and will provide for your security much more effectively there than in a place like Detroit? I would agree there as well. Do you feel you're bullet-proof? That's the only one I would disagree with. As for having 500 folks with guns to deal with 1 criminal, I don't know that this type of hyperbole is constructive here. Maybe that's partially my fault. I mentioned the screening, database, etc. to purchase a gun. In addition to that, there is training, certification and licsensing - including fingerprinting and extensive background checking - if you want to have a permit to actually carry a gun. If you are caught with a weapon and not having the proper permit, you are in for some serious grief with Johnny Law. It's just not as cartoonish and pervasive as you make it out to be. Would I be an advocate of getting guns off the street in general? Absolutely. Here's the problem : I would say to the criminals - with a glance at the law enforcement responsible for our safety in lieu of such self protection - you first. It's a Utopian proposition that has very little basis in reality (short of a totalitarian police state type of enforcement and round up). Again, this is an issue that resides, by and large, in pockets of America. High crime areas in some major cities and southern border towns for the most part. And there are factors that contribute to this. It's a multi-faceted problem with no easy solutions. I can speak for Detroit, but the same holds true for many of these hot spots. Detroit has been in decline for years. The auto industry took a beating a decade ago (and it does in cycles) and businesses started moving out of the city. This was coupled with mismanagement and corruption by city officials. The last mayor and city council members are (or were) serving time for graft, bribes and fleecing the city in general. The last police chief was also more concerned about which of his junior officers he could bed than response times to calls. With tax revenue down from fleeing businesses and money stolen by city officials, there's not as much left over to fund a robust police and emergency force. Response times went through the roof for 911 call and calls to paramedics. And the cycle feeds itself. As you may or not know, the city actually had to declare bankruptcy and is still trying to work its way out of it. In an environment like that, the criminal element absolutely thrives. They also know that response times are up and the police force is seriously undermanned. The criminal element in the city is getting bolder and bolder. There are many car jackings, holdups, etc. Most end badly. I can tell you a dozen stories from the past couple of weeks. But to pin this all on an inanimate object is madness. This is a societal rot due to incompetence, corruption, etc. The criminals are opportunists in that situation. Now to say that folks that have to deal with that situation should not be able to defend themselves when they know the police force will not respond in a timely manner and the criminals have become more and more brazen is pure folly. Now I've been fairly candid and have been trying to have an honest discussion with you. I have come in on your side and agreed with you on a couple of points. I have to say I appreciate the fact that you seem to be interested in having a genuine dialogue for the most part. I'll heed your advice as well. I've taken enough of a kicking on this topic (and I'm the uncivilized one ). I know that you lot can barely tolerate a 'dumb yank' trying to pretend to talk football let alone involve himself in political, philosophical or sociological discussions. So pardon, and cheers mate. My point is that because the general public don't own guns, I don't fear gun shot trauma. This would not be true in most states of America, and I would not want to live in a country where simply going to the shops could lead to me getting caught in a deadly cross fire between criminals and police. Remember that shooting in New York where NINE passers-by got shot? It's unlikely they'd have been stabbed in passing, isn't it? I don't think that I've heard a reasonable argument to be made for the kind of free availability of guns that most states currently enjoy. It's always Liberty, or Freedom, or "bad-guys have guns", or "it's a cultural thing", or "our constitution says"... You would still enjoy civil liberty and freedoms whether you owned an AR15, or a bread knife. If everybody found it more difficult to come by guns, then less bad guys would have guns too. The culture and constitution are historic, the founding fathers are not flawless, and so just as Christians shouldn't take the Bible as sacrosanct, Americans shouldn't believe the Constitution is beyond reproach. You speak of background checks and training and what have you, but that is not the whole truth, I mean a teenager can go to a gun show and buy a semi automatic weapon, without the background checks or training or fingerprinting. A man can (if he has the money), buy a minigun, ffs, how is that anything but insanity in action? You speak of corruption in your offices as if this somehow shows a need for the population to own a gun? I don't understand this thinking at all. How would you feel about Ausman's suggestions? That way, the people who like hunting or simply being marksmen still have their guns, the criminals have a reduced availability of firearms, fully automatic weapons are no longer available to the general public and you could go to a Hockey game, or a concert without thinking that your choice of parking space isn't going to mean you turn up on the local news with two bullet holes in your back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Another bow in the gun lobby's defence. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26959628 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 More guns is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44879 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Exactly. It would have been like that scene in Indiana Jones if all the kids had had guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 33206 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Never mind that, look at this lovely family scene...... .......Look at the Mother's eyes..........Wouldn't bet on her hitting whatever she aimed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Never mind that, look at this lovely family scene...... .......Look at the Mother's eyes..........Wouldn't bet on her hitting whatever she aimed at. family? mother? I see boobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gejon 2 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Give 2 year olds guns!! http://www.cbsnews.com/news/utah-boy-2-shot-and-killed-by-3-year-old-sister/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monroe Transfer 0 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 family? mother? I see boobs Just noticed that there's some guns in that photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15526 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/randallstown/bs-md-co-homicide-arrest-20140422,0,2010339.story A reasonable and measured response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Don't fuck with the Baltimore Stanfields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44879 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I'm reading Homicide by David Simon at the minute, as it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gejon 2 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Baltimore.. Gotta love Snoop every sentence is basically dhkjsjd sn dnsk djnsdb ksnndj jsnmdn kjsdnsk ndb fer real dowg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10857 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27215508 Now if pushed I would say that I was against the death penalty but if they're going to maintain that policy then I don't have much of a problem with the execution being painful and lasting as long as this one did. When you consider that his victim was kidnapped, raped, shot twice and then buried alive I think the 43 minutes he spent in agony wasn't quite enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7027 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Conversely, killing somebody slowly and painfully, to punish them for killing someone slowly and painfully, is about as nonsensical as it gets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42444 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Conversely, killing somebody slowly and painfully, to punish them for killing someone slowly and painfully, is about as nonsensical as it getsCan't really argue past this tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 As I said, I'm against the death penalty but I have no sympathy for the executed when it isn't as painless as it was supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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