Sunderland AFC - how do you feel about them?

[Pacinofan 0]

I respect that about the mackems though, their fanbase is basically almost 100% South Tyneside, Sunderland and County Durham. Everton are the same, you never find an Everton fan anywhere but Merseyside and North Wales. Newcastle have fans fucking everywhere, we got so many glory hunters in the 90's it was unbelievable from around the country and beyond, we have Irish toon fans, Scottish toon fans, North West toon fans (more than a few bizarrely. In Carlisle we're by far the second best supported team), Cockney toon fans etc...etc... they just have the N.E. and I do respect that. For us though around the country in terms of OOT's even to this day only Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool have more OOT's although I'd expect Chelsea and Man City to usurp that in the next ten years. Given the fact our local fanbase is as large and loyal as just about any club in Britain, and we have all these OOT's too, it makes you wonder just how big we'd be if we were successful. You just need to see a toon away end in London, you'd think you were in a West Ham end the accents you hear around you.

 

Not true.

[McFaul 35]

Not true.

I spent a large portion of my life in London, the rest in Newcastle and round the North of England, and never ever come across an Everton fan not from their localish area. They'll exist sure but they're few in number which is surprising considering they were successful in the 80's. I doubt there's one Everton fan from the North East who doesn't have a blood tie to Merseyside, the other way round we've got loads in the North West. There's a good few on here alone. I actually know two toon fans personally from Warrington with no N.E. connections. I get the impression even their scouse support is dying year by year as their gates continue to plummet, Liverpool winning the CL will have done them no favours. It's 20 years since Newcastle had a worse average gate than Everton did last season and they came SEVENTH! Massive over achievement for a club of their current standing and income.

Edited August 2, 2012 by McFaul

[Pacinofan 0]

I too have travelled around a bit and wherever I've gone,home or abroad, it's hard to see past Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal shirts, and Chelsea over the last few years. I couldn't say I've seen great numbers for any other club than those. Everton have as many oots and oocs as most other clubs except for the ones mentioned, in my experience. They have supporters clubs around the world and I've often seen Norwegians around town, over for the game. I imagine most of them will be armchairs nowadays but they'd still call themselves Evertonians.

 

There are fans around the world who follow certain players now, fickle as it is, and they change clubs whenever the player moves. Even here in the 70's we'd get coaches of Celtic fans coming down to see Dalglish, they still supported Celtic but they just loved watching Dalglish play.

 

http://www.toffeeweb...bs/overseas.asp

[Brock Manson 0]

Bloke who sits opposite me in the office is an Everton fan. He's from the west country.

[Howmanheyman 33850]

There was a spell in the late eighties/early nineties where quite a few Scots would come to our games including aways as well. No idea why as we weren't even in the 1st Division at the time.

[McFaul 35]

I too have travelled around a bit and wherever I've gone,home or abroad, it's hard to see past Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal shirts, and Chelsea over the last few years. I couldn't say I've seen great numbers for any other club than those. Everton have as many oots and oocs as most other clubs except for the ones mentioned, in my experience. They have supporters clubs around the world and I've often seen Norwegians around town, over for the game. I imagine most of them will be armchairs nowadays but they'd still call themselves Evertonians.

 

There are fans around the world who follow certain players now, fickle as it is, and they change clubs whenever the player moves. Even here in the 70's we'd get coaches of Celtic fans coming down to see Dalglish, they still supported Celtic but they just loved watching Dalglish play.

 

http://www.toffeeweb...bs/overseas.asp

We used to get Scottish here in the 80's. One game we had 1,000 Hearts come down to watch John Robertson, shame they didn't take him back home with them.

 

When I was in Thailand I saw more of our shirts than any English team other than Man Utd and Arsenal to be fair that was 2000, we'd just come 2nd twice, been in two FA Cup Finals, and it will be different now, but go anywhere almost and you'll find a Newcastle shirt. It was the second best selling shirt in English football in the late 90's.

 

Everton though, you see as many Sunderland shirts in London for example. It's very rare you go anywhere and don't find a Newcastle fan in my experience. The last London company I worked for had 15 people there, two toon fans, one of them from Algeria! I think relegation while not part of their history generally is an inevitability if they don't replace Moyes adequately, because they can't generate the interest and revenue any more. Sunderland have 6 titles Everton have 9, apart from that is there any difference between the two clubs? You can only put so much weighting on history, what I mean is in terms of their future. Quite clearly their support is dwindling, and their ability to buy players isn't that much greater than Norwich or Swansea. Moyes is a miracle worker keeping that club in the top 10 in my view.

[McFaul 35]

There was a spell in the late eighties/early nineties where quite a few Scots would come to our games including aways as well. No idea why as we weren't even in the 1st Division at the time.

Aye you're right, lots of Hearts fans.

[Pacinofan 0]

We used to get Scottish here in the 80's. One game we had 1,000 Hearts come down to watch John Robertson, shame they didn't take him back home with them.

 

When I was in Thailand I saw more of our shirts than any English team other than Man Utd and Arsenal to be fair that was 2000, we'd just come 2nd twice, been in two FA Cup Finals, and it will be different now, but go anywhere almost and you'll find a Newcastle shirt. It was the second best selling shirt in English football in the late 90's.

 

Everton though, you see as many Sunderland shirts in London for example. It's very rare you go anywhere and don't find a Newcastle fan in my experience. The last London company I worked for had 15 people there, two toon fans, one of them from Algeria! I think relegation while not part of their history generally is an inevitability if they don't replace Moyes adequately, because they can't generate the interest and revenue any more. Sunderland have 6 titles Everton have 9, apart from that is there any difference between the two clubs? You can only put so much weighting on history, what I mean is in terms of their future. Quite clearly their support is dwindling, and their ability to buy players isn't that much greater than Norwich or Swansea. Moyes is a miracle worker keeping that club in the top 10 in my view.

 

Well we can only speak as we find, and Liverpool have consistently been in the top 5 world wide shirt sellers. I'm not sure where Arsenal came in the last load of stats for shirt selling, but only Barca, Madrid and Man U sold more replica shirts than LFC. I'm not trying to wind you up or anything, but mostly the Newcastle shirts I've seen abroad were worn by Geordies on holiday, and not so much of that nowadays. LFC have just had a very successful tour of America and last year in Asia they had 40,000 turning up to watch the team train. We're still very healthy in the world wide fan base stakes.

 

I think there is a difference between Newcastle and Everton, they've won 15 trophies, haven't been relegated in what, -- 70 years? Have had consistent fan attendances, if not sell outs. I often hear blues moaning about Kenwright, wondering where, what money they have, goes.

[McFaul 35]

Well we can only speak as we find, and Liverpool have consistently been in the top 5 world wide shirt sellers. I'm not sure where Arsenal came in the last load of stats for shirt selling, but only Barca, Madrid and Man U sold more replica shirts than LFC. I'm not trying to wind you up or anything, but mostly the Newcastle shirts I've seen abroad were worn by Geordies on holiday, and not so much of that nowadays. LFC have just had a very successful tour of America and last year in Asia they had 40,000 turning up to watch the team train. We're still very healthy in the world wide fan base stakes.

 

I think there is a difference between Newcastle and Everton, they've won 15 trophies, haven't been relegated in what, -- 70 years? Have had consistent fan attendances, if not sell outs. I often hear blues moaning about Kenwright, wondering where, what money they have, goes.

There is a difference, we're a much, much better supported club than they are, historically over 120 years the trophy haul is similar, but as a result of the infrastructure and fanbase we can make more money than they do, which is key in modern football, they'll slip even further. I don't even know what u can do to take Everton to the next level, given their vast over achievement in the last 10 years, and there's no manager alive who could've done better than Moyes with a club of Everton's present size. When they came 4th in 2005 I think it was one of the greatest achievements in English football in the Premiership era, given their resources. They've won 15 trophies, we've won 11, not a vast difference. Four trophies difference over 120 years, they're seen as successful, we're seen as underachievers, which says so much about the two clubs.

 

Over 120 years of history we've been a better supported club than Everton despite having four less trophies, and not having won a domestic one for 57 years. NUFC are an astonishing club, I don't think there's a parallel anywhere on earth, some people say Schalke but even they've won the odd trophy recently.

 

Liverpool have a similar trophy haul to Man Utd but Manchester United as most people would concede dwarf Liverpool in the here and now, given the fact they've won 11 league titles in the last 20 years, and are one of the very biggest clubs in the world. Not wishing to pick a fight but you wouldn't see Man Utd getting 35,000 because the manager is under performing.

 

Trophies from 30 years ago only mean so much in terms of stature, the Merseyside fans generally mention the past because it's the main way they can paint their clubs in a positive light. The reality is, stature wise, and if you're honest looking at the future based on facts, Liverpool are probably the 5th club in England. Sadly at this point in time we're 7th until we catch Tottenham. I'm sure you will argue this point but Liverpool need a minor miracle to catch Arsenal off the pitch in terms of income. I don't know how they can do it to be honest.

[Howmanheyman 33850]

I'm not here to knock Everton but if you're saying there is a difference and it's trophies won, 15 and consistent attendances then how is that much different to our trophies of 11 and our attendances that have been at least as good most years and quite often better?

[McFaul 35]

I'm not here to knock Everton but if you're saying there is a difference and it's trophies won, 15 and consistent attendances then how is that much different to our trophies of 11 and our attendances that have been at least as good most years and quite often better?

I don't think he knows much about Newcastle United, either pre-planned ignorance, or actual ignorance. Newcastle and Arsenal were the biggest clubs in England before Munich, support wise over 120 years we're above Everton, and given the fact we've had so much turmoil throughout our history, while they've had a bit more stability, only emphasises the point that we are a naturally bigger club than Everton. It's not really something you can debate. We had more fans paying higher prices, watching Championship football than Everton have had at Goodison since 1970, the club size thing isn't an argument and never will be.

[Howmanheyman 33850]

The only point I'd make about Everton is I have met a few scousers on my travels and I'd say about 60% were Evertonians. Whilst I can't remember meeting any Blues who weren't scousers the same can't be said about Liverpool for obvious reasons.

[Pacinofan 0]

You've said all this before and when I pointed out to you that we never had a 35, 000 average at any time under Houllier, you came out with it being a match or two around Christmas.

 

We've only had one average attendance below 30,00 in the last 60 or so years, and that includes 8 years in Div 2.

 

Newcastle have recorded some great years but some really bad ones. A bit yo yo for many years.

 

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/newu.htm

 

I don't really put a great deal of importance in attendances, especially not nowadays when sponsorships and SKY provide a lot more of a clubs finance than match day. Attendances mean nothing to me, never have, for me it's all about trophies and pride, heartbreak and glory, and in those respects I've been spectacularly lucky to have seen my team win everything they can in club football many times over. A few thousand fans missing here and there is minuscule in comparison.

 

Everton have won 9 league titles, they've been the best club in this country 9 times, quite a difference to 4 I'd say.

[Pacinofan 0]

The only point I'd make about Everton is I have met a few scousers on my travels and I'd say about 60% were Evertonians. Whilst I can't remember meeting any Blues who weren't scousers the same can't be said about Liverpool for obvious reasons.

 

There are more reds than blues in the city. you have to live here to realise that because we don't have parts that are red and parts that are blue. We're not a great shirt wearing people as such, but the kids in the streets are and there are always more reds than blues. The local uni did a postcode survey a few years ago, on people entering the ground. The result had a slightly higher percent of locals being red.

[McFaul 35]

You've said all this before and when I pointed out to you that we never had a 35, 000 average at any time under Houllier, you came out with it being a match or two around Christmas.

 

We've only had one average attendance below 30,00 in the last 60 or so years, and that includes 8 years in Div 2.

 

Newcastle have recorded some great years but some really bad ones. A bit yo yo for many years.

 

http://www.european-...tnclub/newu.htm

 

I don't really put a great deal of importance in attendances, especially not nowadays when sponsorships and SKY provide a lot more of a clubs finance than match day. Attendances mean nothing to me, never have, for me it's all about trophies and pride, heartbreak and glory, and in those respects I've been spectacularly lucky to have seen my team win everything they can in club football many times over. A few thousand fans missing here and there is minuscule in comparison.

 

Everton have won 9 league titles, they've been the best club in this country 9 times, quite a difference to 4 I'd say.

We always put more importance on the FA Cup than the league, it was always seen as more prestigious than the league too up to the 70's. In fact one of the years 1951 or 52 we had 6 games in hand only needed to win 3 or 4 but played our reserves to rest the first team for the FA Cup Final thereby forfeiting the league to win the Cup. Our support has always been astonishing, on paper we had a few bad ones but 1991, was an official boycott to get SJH in power which we won.

[Howmanheyman 33850]

To only ascribe the league titles of us and Everton is a bit misleading mate. When we won our three cups in the fifties we were in with a good shout of the title. We virtually rested more than half our side for the last eight games so important was the cup back then nationally. I think we won one of those games if that. Imagine a club doing that now? It wouldn't happen obviously which tells you the esteem of the cup then so to demean our cup wins gets my back up a bit to be honest, mate.

[Howmanheyman 33850]

Anyway, I'm out for a drink and some scran with Mrs HMHM so play nice, now!

[Pacinofan 0]

We always put more importance on the FA Cup than the league, it was always seen as more prestigious than the league too up to the 70's. In fact one of the years 1951 or 52 we had 6 games in hand only needed to win 3 or 4 but played our reserves to rest the first team for the FA Cup Final thereby forfeiting the league to win the Cup. Our support has always been astonishing, on paper we had a few bad ones but 1991, was an official boycott to get SJH in power which we won.

 

It might have been for Geordies but not for the rest. The league has always been the greatest trophy, the FA Cup the glamourous one. A prestigious trophy to win, but it's the league title that makes you the best. We hadn't won the cup until 1965 and My Dad was absolutely ecstatic when we finally did but he tells me, as have many other old fellas, they would never swap the title for an FA Cup. I was around in the 70's and you're fooling yourself if you think the FA Cup was more important. It just isn't true. The title was the one to win.

 

Every club has their boycott times, but some of your attendances have been abysmal.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Pacinofan

[McFaul 35]

It might have been for Geordies but not for the rest. The league has always been the greatest trophy, the FA Cup the glamourous one. A prestigious trophy to win, but it's the league title that makes you the best. We hadn't won the cup until 1965 and My Dad was absolutely ecstatic when we finally did but he tells me, as have many other old fellas, they would never swap the title for an FA Cup. I was around in the 70's and you're fooling yourself if you think the FA Cup was more important. It just isn't true. The title was the one to win.

 

Every club has their boycott times, but some of your attendances have been abysmal.

Total bollocks. The FA Cup was THE trophy for every club, far far more prestigious than the League and a bit of basic research would show you that. HMHM said the same thing at the same time. Speak to someone a bit older than yourself and they'll explain it to you.

 

Which seasons were abysmal? 81, 82 and 1991, due to organised boycotts? When else? Everton averaged 18,000 in the top flight while winning the FA Cup, far worse than anything we've ever done.

Edited August 2, 2012 by McFaul

[Pacinofan 0]

No, as usual it's you talking bollicks.

 

Shanks came to Anfield in 1959, his dream and ambition was to win the title, to be the best.

 

That was THE trophy to win and once he achieved it for the first time he wanted to go on and on doing it. It was about being the best team in the country, of going on to play the great European sides In The EC.

 

The FA Cup final lead up gave a club a good profile, allowed them to cut a record, give the fans a great day out in London, and a parade round the city to celebrate a win or commiserate a loss.

 

No comparison whatsoever to being the best your country has to offer. I'm well old enough to know about football in the 70's, you weren't there. If you're happy enough to place more pride in an FA Cup win then that's great for you, but don't tell me that the rest of the country felt the same. They didn't, although we all love the final.

[Pacinofan 0]

Total bollocks. The FA Cup was THE trophy for every club, far far more prestigious than the League and a bit of basic research would show you that. HMHM said the same thing at the same time. Speak to someone a bit older than yourself and they'll explain it to you.

 

Which seasons were abysmal? 81, 82 and 1991, due to organised boycotts? When else? Everton averaged 18,000 in the top flight while winning the FA Cup, far worse than anything we've ever done.

 

Wtf is arguing about Evertons attendances? You said your attendances were astonishing, they clearly weren't, but if you want to keep fooling yourself, and gaining some unfathomable sense of pride from the good ones, then fill your boots.

[McFaul 35]

No, as usual it's you talking bollicks.

 

Shanks came to Anfield in 1959, his dream and ambition was to win the title, to be the best.

 

That was THE trophy to win and once he achieved it for the first time he wanted to go on and on doing it. It was about being the best team in the country, of going on to play the great European sides In The EC.

 

The FA Cup final lead up gave a club a good profile, allowed them to cut a record, give the fans a great day out in London, and a parade round the city to celebrate a win or commiserate a loss.

 

No comparison whatsoever to being the best your country has to offer. I'm well old enough to know about football in the 70's, you weren't there. If you're happy enough to place more pride in an FA Cup win then that's great for you, but don't tell me that the rest of the country felt the same. They didn't, although we all love the final.

It wasn't THE trophy to win the FA Cup carried far far far more prestige, it's not even an argument, but it suits yours by making a lie up about "Shanks".

 

Wtf is arguing about Evertons attendances? You said your attendances were astonishing, they clearly weren't, but if you want to keep fooling yourself, and gaining some unfathomable sense of pride from the good ones, then fill your boots.

They are astonishing generally speaking given we haven't won anything for domestically in over two generations. If we'd won half what Liverpool have since 1965 90,000 capacity would be too small.

[Pacinofan 0]

It wasn't THE trophy to win the FA Cup carried far far far more prestige, it's not even an argument, but it suits yours by making a lie up about "Shanks".

 

They are astonishing generally speaking given we haven't won anything for domestically in over two generations. If we'd won half what Liverpool have since 1965 90,000 capacity would be too small.

 

I'm off now because you're starting to talk even more piss than usual. Delusional is a word that suits you to a t.

 

I would never make things up about Shanks btw, I have too much respect for his character. It's you that makes things up to suit. Shankly spoke about the league title and being the best on numerous occasions. That and the EC were always his goals at Anfield, the rest were just decoration for him, nice to win but not essential. He was a man who wanted his teams to win everything but the title and Europe were his priorities, always.

[Tooj 17]

Paisley never gave a shit about the FA Cup like.

[McFaul 35]

I'm off now because you're starting to talk even more piss than usual. Delusional is a word that suits you to a t.

 

I would never make things up about Shanks btw, I have too much respect for his character. It's you that makes things up to suit. Shankly spoke about the league title and being the best on numerous occasions. That and the EC were always his goals at Anfield, the rest were just decoration for him, nice to win but not essential. He was a man who wanted his teams to win everything but the title and Europe were his priorities, always.

Two people have told you you're talking shite, but it's a fact because you're fatha told you? You stupid cunt. You've accepted that Newcastle held the FA Cup as the most prestigious competition which it clearly was, two people have told you we forfeited league titles to win it, so who can deny that every other club held it in the same esteem we did? They did, and I have no doubt Liverpool did, you're wrong, emphatically wrong. The fact is every club held it as the most prestigious and the most important to win.