Bombadil 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Are you on drugs Renton, even the tactically inept Keegan realised he needed someone to protect a fragile back 4 and Batty was one of the best in the world at this. If Keegan was tactically inept, what does that make Souness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well if anyone can produce the NUFC stats for the year before we signed Batty and the year following his signing I'd be greatly interested. By attacking you can take the pressure off your defence, but Batty could only kick sideways and we went downhill iirc. And just to make it perfectly clear, I have already said I think Parker is Souness's best signing - however, people are taking my comment out of context, which was basically as a whole Souness's signings are not good. 73537[/snapback] By the same reckoning, you'd have to blame Shearer then 73540[/snapback] Not really, Shearer's goal rate proved his use, plus we changed managers at the same time. I realise I am a voice in the wilderness here but I really hated that Yorkshire twat! Most others blame Asprilla of course. 73546[/snapback] So what about Clark, who played in that position and rarely scored, plus the aforementioned freescoring, able to put the ball on a sixpence from 60 yards Barry Venison then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Are you on drugs Renton, even the tactically inept Keegan realised he needed someone to protect a fragile back 4 and Batty was one of the best in the world at this. If Keegan was tactically inept, what does that make Souness? 73553[/snapback] Keegan was naive, Souness is inept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21983 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well if anyone can produce the NUFC stats for the year before we signed Batty and the year following his signing I'd be greatly interested. By attacking you can take the pressure off your defence, but Batty could only kick sideways and we went downhill iirc. And just to make it perfectly clear, I have already said I think Parker is Souness's best signing - however, people are taking my comment out of context, which was basically as a whole Souness's signings are not good. 73537[/snapback] By the same reckoning, you'd have to blame Shearer then 73540[/snapback] Not really, Shearer's goal rate proved his use, plus we changed managers at the same time. I realise I am a voice in the wilderness here but I really hated that Yorkshire twat! Most others blame Asprilla of course. 73546[/snapback] So what about Clark, who played in that position and rarely scored, plus the aforementioned freescoring, able to put the ball on a sixpence from 60 yards Barry Venison then? 73555[/snapback] What about them Alex? Fundamentally we were a better team with Clark in it imo, with Vension you are going too far back in history. It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7169 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Hi Everyone, i'm back from the xmas break (don't have internet at home). Saw the highlights of the match last night, couldn't judge anyone on that, those who went to the ground would know better. Except: Boumsong and Bramble who are actually getting worse. I think we have big porblems with all the back 4 and their cover. Moore has disappeared, Taylor's out for ages, Baba's not performing, Elliot is crap, Carr has fallen out with Souness, i don't Ramage will make it as a Prem player - far too ordinary. That's 8 defenders who arn't doing the the do. Emre - frequently absent. Parker - Tackles a lot, doesn't create anything, i agree with that NO article, i'm sure he'd rather play football. Owen - Major absenteeism, maybe this is what happens if you go into 50-50 challenges with a GK? Solano - Shy of white lines Luque - Not a replacement for Robert it seems (who can't make it at Portsmouth), if we sell him we're left with Shearer (now that Ameobi's injured but couldn't score anyway) up front with an occasional appearence from Chopra! Can we afford to let Luque go? Who are we gonna replace him with? Another unproven striker like Ashton or Nihat? What's the point, might as well see him through to the summer and see how things develop. He might do well or he might be just ok but might click better with whatever striker we bring in over the summer (assuming Shearer doesn't stay on). What i've seen of Luque so far, he hasn't offered much. I'll wait until i've seen him play a fair few games before i make a decision on him though. Thinking about it now, Souness 'Great Signings' don't seem so special do they? And i forgot about Faye! 73283[/snapback] Totally disagree like, considering hes played about ten games for us i think hes class, and hes out of position. I reckon if SOuness took the plunge and played him and taylor at CB together they would shit on Boumsong and Bramble. They have come up through the ranks together, both local lads, know each others games and are tactically more aware than bramble and boumsong put together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well if anyone can produce the NUFC stats for the year before we signed Batty and the year following his signing I'd be greatly interested. By attacking you can take the pressure off your defence, but Batty could only kick sideways and we went downhill iirc. And just to make it perfectly clear, I have already said I think Parker is Souness's best signing - however, people are taking my comment out of context, which was basically as a whole Souness's signings are not good. 73537[/snapback] By the same reckoning, you'd have to blame Shearer then 73540[/snapback] Not really, Shearer's goal rate proved his use, plus we changed managers at the same time. I realise I am a voice in the wilderness here but I really hated that Yorkshire twat! Most others blame Asprilla of course. 73546[/snapback] So what about Clark, who played in that position and rarely scored, plus the aforementioned freescoring, able to put the ball on a sixpence from 60 yards Barry Venison then? 73555[/snapback] What about them Alex? Fundamentally we were a better team with Clark in it imo, with Vension you are going too far back in history. It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. 73560[/snapback] Batty was superb in that match iirc, and Clark played the same role, albeit slightly differently that same season and Venison played there earlier under KK, hence it's relevent. A role you said, you'd prefer our team didn't need. Even the great Real Madrid teams of recent years employed Makele there iirc. As for bottling it and going negative, do you include the signing of Asprilla as part of that or have you conveniently decided to ignore that from your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Thing is though, whether you think he'll ultimately make it here or not, it's a disgrace that after a handful of games he's already getting that famous SJP OTT mumbling and grumbling every time something doesn't work out for him, or he loses possession or whatever. Lots of people have clearly already made their minds up about the bloke. 73424[/snapback] all football crowds are the same .... and you shouldn't presume that those who voice an opinion on a player in the pub, or on a message board, necessarily transfer the same feeling in the ground, rather than support the players on the field, where it matters. Not everyone is like Graeme Souness and allows personal judgements and feelings to come between themselves and what it takes to get positive performances on the pitch on match days where it really counts, for the good of the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Parker = Great defensive midfielder, but personally I'd rather we had a team that didn't need this type of player. 73447[/snapback] Agree with a lot of what you said but the bit above is a pisstake surely. Even KK's teams had a holding midfielder. In addition to that I'd say almost all successful teams play with at least one midfielder like Parker. 73459[/snapback] Newcastle under KK without Batty would only been half the team they were tbh 73467[/snapback] You see, I completely disagree with that, for me the introduction of Batty was the beginning of the end for KK's Newcastle. As soon as we tried to defend, we lost our attacking impetus. As for Keane/Viera/Makalele, I personaly think they are all far superior to Parker, especially going forward (although obviously they play/ed for far better teams). Now don't get me wrong, I think Parker is a good player, it's just I don't think he is good enough for a truely top side (I would agree he is very necessary at the moment though, and is frequently, even usually, my MotM). But why did Chelsea let him go again? 73507[/snapback] absolutely spot on .... all the talk sbout Keegan being tactically naive etc etc is a load or rubbish, he played the team to their strengths, this is tactically correct. What other way is there ? You can talk about the Blackburn and Liverpool games as much as you like, but there were many other games when the team stuck to playing to its strength and scored a 2nd goal to kill off the game. The only difference being those games weren't given the exposure on sky tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Parker = Great defensive midfielder, but personally I'd rather we had a team that didn't need this type of player. 73447[/snapback] Agree with a lot of what you said but the bit above is a pisstake surely. Even KK's teams had a holding midfielder. In addition to that I'd say almost all successful teams play with at least one midfielder like Parker. 73459[/snapback] Newcastle under KK without Batty would only been half the team they were tbh 73467[/snapback] You see, I completely disagree with that, for me the introduction of Batty was the beginning of the end for KK's Newcastle. As soon as we tried to defend, we lost our attacking impetus. As for Keane/Viera/Makalele, I personaly think they are all far superior to Parker, especially going forward (although obviously they play/ed for far better teams). Now don't get me wrong, I think Parker is a good player, it's just I don't think he is good enough for a truely top side (I would agree he is very necessary at the moment though, and is frequently, even usually, my MotM). But why did Chelsea let him go again? 73507[/snapback] Are you on drugs Renton, even the tactically inept Keegan realised he needed someone to protect a fragile back 4 and Batty was one of the best in the world at this. Parker is a player in a similar vein but can offer more going forward but at the moment hasn't been able to basically because he can't rely on the likes of Emre or Faye to sit and hold that position, perhaps if Clark and Parker were in the middle together he would be more likely to get forward, and on Clark's performance against Boro he'd be my first name on the team sheet for the next game. 73531[/snapback] howay man SO...See the other previous post....if Keegan was so "tactically inept" he beat a hell of a lot of "tactically astute" managers.....no one finishes 90 minutes from the title if they are "tactically inept" mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46023 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Thing is though, whether you think he'll ultimately make it here or not, it's a disgrace that after a handful of games he's already getting that famous SJP OTT mumbling and grumbling every time something doesn't work out for him, or he loses possession or whatever. Lots of people have clearly already made their minds up about the bloke. 73424[/snapback] all football crowds are the same .... and you shouldn't presume that those who voice an opinion on a player in the pub, or on a message board, necessarily transfer the same feeling in the ground, rather than support the players on the field, where it matters. Not everyone is like Graeme Souness and allows personal judgements and feelings to come between themselves and what it takes to get positive performances on the pitch on match days where it really counts, for the good of the club 73586[/snapback] I'm not presuming anything mate. I'm talking about what I hear at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 46023 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? 73611[/snapback] Grow up man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? 73611[/snapback] Grow up man. 73618[/snapback] I'm deadly serious. The lack of such a chant says far more than a few grumblings of discontent towards one or two players, about some of our so called "knowledgeable" supporters ps.....did you ever hear such mutterings about Bellamy, who even the biggest blind Souness believer must be shocked by now at just how badly missed he's been....... Been telling you for over a year now, our future starts the day fuckwit is sacked Edited January 3, 2006 by LeazesMag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sima Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? 73611[/snapback] I bet you love the pantomime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? 73611[/snapback] I bet you love the pantomime. 73630[/snapback] I don't think a possible relegation fight, for 50m quid, is owt to laugh at either .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sima Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well, it's a shame they weren't singing "souness out", as they should have been doing over a year ago instead There's some right plonkers around aren't there ? 73611[/snapback] I bet you love the pantomime. 73630[/snapback] I don't think a possible relegation fight, for 50m quid, is owt to laugh at either .... 73637[/snapback] I do, I put £30 quid on us at 66/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6700 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Well if anyone can produce the NUFC stats for the year before we signed Batty and the year following his signing I'd be greatly interested. By attacking you can take the pressure off your defence, but Batty could only kick sideways and we went downhill iirc. And just to make it perfectly clear, I have already said I think Parker is Souness's best signing - however, people are taking my comment out of context, which was basically as a whole Souness's signings are not good. 73537[/snapback] By the same reckoning, you'd have to blame Shearer then 73540[/snapback] Not really, Shearer's goal rate proved his use, plus we changed managers at the same time. I realise I am a voice in the wilderness here but I really hated that Yorkshire twat! Most others blame Asprilla of course. 73546[/snapback] Keegan doesn't - he blames neither. KK choses to put the blame on some of the players who had been there since the start of the 95-96 season and suggested their performances had gone into decline. Both Asprilla and Batty took the flak because they joined at a time when Manchester United became awesome. Remember we didn't drop many points on that run in, they just managed to drop less. David Batty is one of the best defensive midfielders to ever grace the black and white shirt in recent years - FACT. People criticised Keegan for being too attacking, he brings in Batty and gets criticised again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6700 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. 73560[/snapback] tbh, we lost that game because the world's greatest keeper at that time (Schmeichel) had by his own admission the best game of his life. Add to that a moment of genius from Cantona which got their goal and the result is a 1-0 win to Man Utd. How the fuck can you blame the result of that game on David Batty? Talk about finding a scape-goat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammynb 3508 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. 73560[/snapback] tbh, we lost that game because the world's greatest keeper at that time (Schmeichel) had by his own admission the best game of his life. Add to that a moment of genius from Cantona which got their goal and the result is a 1-0 win to Man Utd. How the fuck can you blame the result of that game on David Batty? Talk about finding a scape-goat.... 73675[/snapback] If you want an accurate opinion of Batty and his performances at Newcastle read Rob Lee's biography, he rates him as the best midfielder he played with in the centre of the park while at Newcastle. He also give Howey huge praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. 73560[/snapback] tbh, we lost that game because the world's greatest keeper at that time (Schmeichel) had by his own admission the best game of his life. Add to that a moment of genius from Cantona which got their goal and the result is a 1-0 win to Man Utd. How the fuck can you blame the result of that game on David Batty? Talk about finding a scape-goat.... 73675[/snapback] If you want an accurate opinion of Batty and his performances at Newcastle read Rob Lee's biography, he rates him as the best midfielder he played with in the centre of the park while at Newcastle. He also give Howey huge praise. 73692[/snapback] Batty surprised me when we bought him .... encouraged to do a bit more on the ball by Keegan [and only under Keegan] he was a good footballer, much better than I suspect all of us thought However, disturbing the rhythmn and balance of the team, in other words messing up a team he had tactically right, is a different argument. He should have left it alone. Arspilla particularly, should never have been brought to the club, but having signed him, Keegan should have left him on the bench and only used him to change things when they weren't going so well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21983 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 It's probably just chance, but iirc Batty's fist game for us was the one that lost us the title in 1996 (1-0 defeat at home by ManU). But since then, we really went downhill, trying to defend when we should have just kept on doing what we did best - attacking. Keegan bottled it - the introduction of Batty showed this to me. And once Keegan had gone Batty became nothing more than a negative liability in the centre of the park, imo, of course. 73560[/snapback] tbh, we lost that game because the world's greatest keeper at that time (Schmeichel) had by his own admission the best game of his life. Add to that a moment of genius from Cantona which got their goal and the result is a 1-0 win to Man Utd. How the fuck can you blame the result of that game on David Batty? Talk about finding a scape-goat.... 73675[/snapback] Read the first line of what I said Craig. I'm not blaming Batty per se (or at all for that particular match), but neither do I agree with Isegrim's earlier assertion that we were a much better team with Batty. For an explanation of why, I think LeazesMag explains it pretty well in this thread; I also think he is right that Asprilla should only have been used as a supersub, if at all. I wish we could have cloned Rob Lee personally..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21983 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well if anyone can produce the NUFC stats for the year before we signed Batty and the year following his signing I'd be greatly interested. By attacking you can take the pressure off your defence, but Batty could only kick sideways and we went downhill iirc. And just to make it perfectly clear, I have already said I think Parker is Souness's best signing - however, people are taking my comment out of context, which was basically as a whole Souness's signings are not good. 73537[/snapback] By the same reckoning, you'd have to blame Shearer then 73540[/snapback] Not really, Shearer's goal rate proved his use, plus we changed managers at the same time. I realise I am a voice in the wilderness here but I really hated that Yorkshire twat! Most others blame Asprilla of course. 73546[/snapback] Keegan doesn't - he blames neither. KK choses to put the blame on some of the players who had been there since the start of the 95-96 season and suggested their performances had gone into decline. Both Asprilla and Batty took the flak because they joined at a time when Manchester United became awesome. Remember we didn't drop many points on that run in, they just managed to drop less. David Batty is one of the best defensive midfielders to ever grace the black and white shirt in recent years - FACT. People criticised Keegan for being too attacking, he brings in Batty and gets criticised again! 73672[/snapback] Also just thought I'd point out that I never criticized KK for being too attacking. Even at the time I could spell the media bullshit anyway - we weren't particlarly bad defensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth Operator 10 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Parker = Great defensive midfielder, but personally I'd rather we had a team that didn't need this type of player. 73447[/snapback] Agree with a lot of what you said but the bit above is a pisstake surely. Even KK's teams had a holding midfielder. In addition to that I'd say almost all successful teams play with at least one midfielder like Parker. 73459[/snapback] Newcastle under KK without Batty would only been half the team they were tbh 73467[/snapback] You see, I completely disagree with that, for me the introduction of Batty was the beginning of the end for KK's Newcastle. As soon as we tried to defend, we lost our attacking impetus. As for Keane/Viera/Makalele, I personaly think they are all far superior to Parker, especially going forward (although obviously they play/ed for far better teams). Now don't get me wrong, I think Parker is a good player, it's just I don't think he is good enough for a truely top side (I would agree he is very necessary at the moment though, and is frequently, even usually, my MotM). But why did Chelsea let him go again? 73507[/snapback] Are you on drugs Renton, even the tactically inept Keegan realised he needed someone to protect a fragile back 4 and Batty was one of the best in the world at this. Parker is a player in a similar vein but can offer more going forward but at the moment hasn't been able to basically because he can't rely on the likes of Emre or Faye to sit and hold that position, perhaps if Clark and Parker were in the middle together he would be more likely to get forward, and on Clark's performance against Boro he'd be my first name on the team sheet for the next game. 73531[/snapback] howay man SO...See the other previous post....if Keegan was so "tactically inept" he beat a hell of a lot of "tactically astute" managers.....no one finishes 90 minutes from the title if they are "tactically inept" mate 73591[/snapback] Keegan was a one trick pony when it came to tactics, I'm not saying I didn't love it when we could turn up for the game in full knowledge that we'd steam roller the opposition but it was all he knew. That imo is the reason he walked from England, he tried to do the only thing he knew and was found out virtually from the start. A tactically astute manager for me is one who can get his team to effectively play a number of ways depending on the opposition/situation. Keegan didn't have this and it's the reason I would never want him to come back, that as well as the fact he a quitter and that will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Have you read his book ? In particular the sections concerning the flotation of the club ? I don't think he quit England out of cowardice at all, he quit because he was too honest...far better that than hanging on for grim death like Glenda did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 4131 Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I am fully with Renton on this one. Batty is the worst signing Newcastle ever made. We were never the same again after he came. I know its an oversimplification but his one paced sideways passing destroyed the tempo which made us so entertaining and succesful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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