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[ewerk 30598]

 he'll rarely do better than c1.2PpG, which is good enough for about 46pts in a Premier League season(around 13-14th).

 

Which is exactly what he got with them last season compared to Moyes' 0.65 ppg despite a net spend of £25m.

[Rayvin 5217]

Wasn't Allardyce making noises about being undermined before he left though? He needs a fair budget to stay up IMO, not capable of doing it on a shoestring like Moyes has been able to previously. I think Short has killed them this season. Well, maybe not even Short. This season is really just the legacy of crap management throughout the club. That Alvarez saga sums up Sunderland's incompetence.

[ewerk 30598]

He spent £15m last January to keep Sunderland up, it wasn't a huge amount.

[The Fish 10856]

Which is exactly what he got with them last season compared to Moyes' 0.65 ppg despite a net spend of £25m.

 

Reckon if Moyes had had a full preseason he would have got them more points, but £25m isn't a huge amount for the presumptive favourites for relegation to spend to try and fix their squad.

 

Still dunno why they didn't re-sign M'Vila who seemed important for them last year.

 

Like @@Rayvin says, this season is just the end result of years of mismanagement from the top down. 

[ewerk 30598]

A better manager than Moyes could have kept that squad up. He has had eight months now to coach them and to change their attitudes but has failed entirely.

[Rayvin 5217]

A better manager than Moyes could have kept that squad up. He has had eight months now to coach them and to change their attitudes but has failed entirely.

 

Really?

 

Have you seen their squad I'd say it's rivalling Villa of last year's for how bad it is. Rodwell has been a mainstay of their midfield and until a few weeks ago hadn't been in a winning Sunderland side for 36 games or something.

 

Who are the players that you think are good enough to keep them up under better management? Defoe, Pickford and...?

[Dr Gloom 21915]

sunderland have been relegation candidates for years, it was the 6 points they were gifted for the past few seasons by pardew/mclaren that was keeping them up, as most people on here predicted

[The Fish 10856]

A better manager than Moyes could have kept that squad up. He has had eight months now to coach them and to change their attitudes but has failed entirely.

 

Well, aye maybe. But not a manager that would have entertained joining Sunderland, not considering the plight they're in; No players, no money, not even enough players good who're enough to sell for enough money to fund the kind of recruitment that was needed. A disrupted preseason and a lengthy list on the treatment table. 

 

Moyes is bad, but he's about as good as Sunderland could hope to attract, surely?

 

Don't think his position has been helped by the board, I mean how much did they spend in the January window, when it was obvious to every man and his dog they were in serious trouble but still in touching distance of safety? They were 18th then, 2pts behind Palace. Since then they've dropped to 20th, scored 7 and only won 6pts. Surely with a bit of money spent in January even Moyes could have got more from the reinvigorated squad?

[The Fish 10856]

sunderland have been relegation candidates for years, it was the 6 points they were gifted for the past few seasons by pardew/mclaren that was keeping them up, as most people on here predicted

It is pretty hilarious that we all said that tongue in cheek, but it looks entirely true. I thought maybe those 6 points would come from Swansea, Burnley or whomever, but nope, they needed a match to get up for and needed a side to wilt under that pressure as we did.

[Alex 35077]

They'd have gone down the last 3 seasons if we'd done the double over them. A bit moot considering how we failed to turn up in almost all of those games but still...

[Dr Gloom 21915]

i thought moyes was a good manager at everton, he had a knack of being able to spot which championship players could make the step up to the top flight. he's been pretty shit ever since

[ewerk 30598]

Sunderland have a squad that you would expect to be battling relegation and at the moment they aren't even doing that. Villa aside you have to go back to Derby to find a team with a worse record after 31 games. Moyes has been a disaster for them. Allardyce had them punching above their weight but Moyes has done the opposite, he has had a negative effect on the side. There's limited evidence to suggest that he is the man to rebuild this team in the Championship.

[Rayvin 5217]

Sunderland have a squad that you would expect to be battling relegation and at the moment they aren't even doing that. Villa aside you have to go back to Derby to find a team with a worse record after 31 games. Moyes has been a disaster for them. Allardyce had them punching above their weight but Moyes has done the opposite, he has had a negative effect on the side. There's limited evidence to suggest that he is the man to rebuild this team in the Championship.

 

Have to say I agree with this, but not so much because Moyes is a poor manager. He's not right for a rebuild job in the championship because he's now tainted by this failure, and has lost the patience of the fans (and possibly the belief of the players).

 

Allardyce might have had them a few points better off but remember that Moyes did actually destroy Allardyce's Palace a few weeks back. They have played well this year, in spells. Even in their loss to Man Utd, they had some decent spells from what I gather. The players just aren't good enough. They lost too many key performers over the summer and replaced them with shit. Plus they've had Cattermole injured all season - as much as I dislike the guy, he really does make a difference for them.

[The Fish 10856]

Sunderland have a squad that you would expect to be battling relegation and at the moment they aren't even doing that. Villa aside you have to go back to Derby to find a team with a worse record after 31 games. Moyes has been a disaster for them. Allardyce had them punching above their weight but Moyes has done the opposite, he has had a negative effect on the side. There's limited evidence to suggest that he is the man to rebuild this team in the Championship.

 

Honestly, I think he could be a good fit for them. I think the fans have turned though and there's pretty much no chance of coming back from that. 

 

For the record I don't think he's very good, just think the underlying issues are countless and deep rooted and all criticism of him should be tempered with that caveat?

[The Fish 10856]

Have to say I agree with this, but not so much because Moyes is a poor manager. He's not right for a rebuild job in the championship because he's now tainted by this failure, and has lost the patience of the fans (and possibly the belief of the players).

 

Allardyce might have had them a few points better off but remember that Moyes did actually destroy Allardyce's Palace a few weeks back. They have played well this year, in spells. Even in their loss to Man Utd, they had some decent spells from what I gather. The players just aren't good enough. They lost too many key performers over the summer and replaced them with shit. Plus they've had Cattermole injured all season - as much as I dislike the guy, he really does make a difference for them.

 

Never been a better indictment of the strength of their squad that missing Lee fucking Cattermole has been pivotal

[Rayvin 5217]

I'm actually impressed that Short has given up on viewing this from a short term perspective. He seems to have accepted relegation with the view that chopping and changing has kept them just above the line but can't move them on. And that's fair enough. Had he done that 5 years ago I think they'd be in a far better position than they are now - the downside with doing it now is that it's going to cost them at least a season worth of the new PL deal money, and the club is living way outside of its means.

[ewerk 30598]

Honestly, I think he could be a good fit for them. I think the fans have turned though and there's pretty much no chance of coming back from that. 

 

For the record I don't think he's very good, just think the underlying issues are countless and deep rooted and all criticism of him should be tempered with that caveat?

 

All of what you say is true but with what certainty might Moyes be a good fit? Whoever is in charge come July needs to begin a huge clearout and rebuilding process and the problem is that if you have the wrong man in charge of that then it's a lot of money down the drain and at least another season in the Championship at best. Villa made the mistake of bringing in the wrong man and backing him to make massive changes and it just didn't work. Moyes hasn't shown any evidence yet that he should be trusted to do that at Sunderland.

[The Fish 10856]

I'm actually impressed that Short has given up on viewing this from a short term perspective. He seems to have accepted relegation with the view that chopping and changing has kept them just above the line but can't move them on. And that's fair enough. Had he done that 5 years ago I think they'd be in a far better position than they are now - the downside with doing it now is that it's going to cost them at least a season worth of the new PL deal money, and the club is living way outside of its means.

They would have been much better off going down in 2013 imo. Clear out a load of shit (that are still there), cash in on Johnson, Fletcher, Mignolet etc. Get rid of Di Canio and bring in someone who isn't a massive fascist mad heed. Rowett? Adkins? Dyche?

 

A year to reinvent themselves before the gap between Premier League and Championship sides gets too big.

 

All of what you say is true but with what certainty might Moyes be a good fit? Whoever is in charge come July needs to begin a huge clearout and rebuilding process and the problem is that if you have the wrong man in charge of that then it's a lot of money down the drain and at least another season in the Championship at best. Villa made the mistake of bringing in the wrong man and backing him to make massive changes and it just didn't work. Moyes hasn't shown any evidence yet that he should be trusted to do that at Sunderland.

 

 

Aye that's fair enough. I'm probably being too generous to a man that has, by most measures, failed. Even with the cards stacked against him he hasn't exactly made a good fist of it.

 

Also, stating in August that you're in a relegation fight is a sackable offence imo.

[David Kelly 1244]

I don't think Allardyce would have still been in charge of them regardless of the England job.  It seemed clear that he was fucked off with the way things were going and his stock was at it's highest last summer after keeping them up.  I think he would have walked and quite possibly ended up at Palace anyway.  Although without the allegations against him he would have probably been expecting a higher club than them. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Higher club? You make it sound like money isn't his only consideration

[Howay 12496]

I don't think Allardyce would have still been in charge of them regardless of the England job.  It seemed clear that he was fucked off with the way things were going and his stock was at it's highest last summer after keeping them up.  I think he would have walked and quite possibly ended up at Palace anyway.  Although without the allegations against him he would have probably been expecting a higher club than them. 

Aye I agree, he seemed fairly unhappy with transfers and money available. I reckon he'd have been angling to get away as he knew it was always going to be an uphill battle to keep them up, he barely kept them up with the squad he had and there were a fair amount of loans plus a paedo in that one. 

[David Kelly 1244]

Higher club? You make it sound like money isn't his only consideration

Whilst I agree it is a major driving force for him, I don't think money is his only consideration at all.  He clearly has a desire to be respected as a top manager.  We've heard shit before from him that he could manage Real.  I think him and Pardew are exactly the same in that respect, they both think they should be more highly rated than they are.  Whereas we all know the opposite is true.

[Howay 12496]

Aye they both seem to be of the mindset that they would get more respect if they were foreign, when in actual fact they are generally over rated simply because they're English. There is absolutely no way Pardew would still have a career in this country if he was foreign, the failure at Southampton in League one would have been the end of it there's no way he'd have walked into a PL job after that.

[Rayvin 5217]

I'd be interested to see how either of them get on at a big club mind cos you never know. There are times when I think this whole management game in football is populated entirely by charlatans who don't know what they're doing. It'd be interesting to see one of them in charge of, say, Arsenal. Moyes at Man Utd might be the closest we've gotten and he had an arguably better record than Van Gaal, from memory.

[Howay 12496]

It'd only be interesting because they'd be a disaster. I don't think it's a coincidence that Pardew struggled to manage the more talented players in his squads (Ben Arfa, Tevez, Mascherano) and favoured their far inferior team mates over them (Obertan, Carlton Cole, Nigel Reo-Coker), he was fine with Cabaye but I honestly don't think he did much coaching of Cabaye it showed as when Cabaye left the line-up the team played a completely different style of football. 

I get what you're saying about Moyes and Van Gaal but Moyes took over a title winning side and spent a good whack of money on some questionable players, the side itself was also sort of falling apart which is why I think Ferguson got out when he did. Though to be fair I think by that point Van Gaal had started to get too into his own theories on tactics and his Man Utd side seemed to have a crippling fear of risking the ball to such a point that they'd pass the ball backwards at the slightest hint of pressure.