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[The Fish 10686]

 

I've absolutely zero sympathy for them, we said all of those things to them repeatedly last season and got responses around the level of "da Premier league is all that mattaz lol FTM". They're now essentially turning around and saying we were 100% correct but don't see any irony in it, fucking thick bastards.

 

The post someone put up where they basically put their squad up minus Defoe, Borini, and Pickford and said it was better than our is just outrageous, if the poster in anyway believes that is the case they know nothing at all about football. How many goals has Defoe contributed of their total scored? it must be 75% or so, how could they ever take him out the team and think they'd be okay when they're dogshit even with him in the side? Like Rayvin was saying without a massive injection of money into the side they're in serious trouble of kicking about the bottom half of the table down here. The only success they've had this season has been counter attacking, we've seen how teams play against the newly relegated sides down here and they wont get much chance to play on the counter.

 

They also keep talking about the current NUFC team as if it's exactly the same shambles we saw under McClaren except in a lower league, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Rafa has coached this team to the point players are nearly unrecognizable, I've not seen an NUFC defence look as comfortable under pressure as they did in the Huddersfield game for absolute donkeys years.

 

There's a consensus that because a player/team is lower in the pyramid he/they must be inferior. But I'd fancy Brighton's first team to go toe-to-toe with the bottom 4-5 of the Premier League and I'd suggest that the Aston Villa team from 15/16 would struggle to do much better than mid-table in the Championship.

 

There's also that misconception that if a team doesn't dominate possession and shots, they've nicked a win. Given Benitez is a pragmatic manager whose successes are built on a solid defence, it's no surprise a fair amount of our games have seen the opposition having more of the ball.

 

I won't be surprised when they grind out a win away to Brentford they'll laugh off any accusations of a struggle. "Lucky 1-0"s will become "professional away performances", this Sunday league will become a competitive league, these pub teams will become difficult opponents, and so on. Revisionism and outright denials will be the order of the day.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if RTG cleared it's history, to eradicate evidence that some of their posters looked at the Championship with scorn and derision.

 

 

But this is exactly why they needed to go down. They've needed to for years. The prestige of being in the PL isn't enough if you aren't going to compete.

 

We were in exactly the same boat in truth, but we actually had a good team (arguably) last year. Our problem was McClaren utterly failed. Their problem is that they're just not good enough, I would argue as a club, to actually be in the PL.

 

They have a problem we didn't. They're crippled by debt to outside parties. Any money they make by selling Kone and Pickford won't necessarily go towards new players and may just be used to pay off their creditors. Relegation means no TV money and that could​ mean rack and ruin.

Teams like Villa and us can take a season or two away from the Premier League trough. Norwich, Burnley, and the like can afford to yo-yo between the leagues because they spend within their means. Sunderland spend like a top half team and have nothing to show for it. Should they drop, they've little in terms of saleable assets like us, they don't have a benefactor like Villa, they don't have a bottom Prem/Top Champ team like Norwich or Burnley.

They'll need to spend tens of millions on a squad if they want to bounce back at the first time of asking.

They won't raise that through player sales.

They can't get it from Short.

If thousands of fans are fucking off on 60minutes when they're only 2-0 down, I'd predict their attendances will plummet in the 2nd tier, so there's less cash coming in on match day.

 

Relegation can be a chance to burn down a rotten mess and start again, but for Sunderland, it could lead to the kind of financial strife that did for Portsmouth as a top club.

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

There's a consensus that because a player/team is lower in the pyramid he/they must be inferior. But I'd fancy Brighton's first team to go toe-to-toe with the bottom 4-5 of the Premier League and I'd suggest that the Aston Villa team from 15/16 would struggle to do much better than mid-table in the Championship.

 

There's also that misconception that if a team doesn't dominate possession and shots, they've nicked a win. Given Benitez is a pragmatic manager whose successes are built on a solid defence, it's no surprise a fair amount of our games have seen the opposition having more of the ball.

 

I won't be surprised when they grind out a win away to Brentford they'll laugh off any accusations of a struggle. "Lucky 1-0"s will become "professional away performances", this Sunday league will become a competitive league, these pub teams will become difficult opponents, and so on. Revisionism and outright denials will be the order of the day.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if RTG cleared it's history, to eradicate evidence that some of their posters looked at the Championship with scorn and derision.

 

 

 

They have a problem we didn't. They're crippled by debt to outside parties. Any money they make by selling Kone and Pickford won't necessarily go towards new players and may just be used to pay off their creditors. Relegation means no TV money and that could​ mean rack and ruin.

Teams like Villa and us can take a season or two away from the Premier League trough. Norwich, Burnley, and the like can afford to yo-yo between the leagues because they spend within their means. Sunderland spend like a top half team and have nothing to show for it. Should they drop, they've little in terms of saleable assets like us, they don't have a benefactor like Villa, they don't have a bottom Prem/Top Champ team like Norwich or Burnley.

They'll need to spend tens of millions on a squad if they want to bounce back at the first time of asking.

They won't raise that through player sales.

They can't get it from Short.

If thousands of fans are fucking off on 60minutes when they're only 2-0 down, I'd predict their attendances will plummet in the 2nd tier, so there's less cash coming in on match day.

 

Relegation can be a chance to burn down a rotten mess and start again, but for Sunderland, it could lead to the kind of financial strife that did for Portsmouth as a top club.

 

 

 

An excellent, balanced analysis there.

[Howay 12496]

Aye good post Fish. I agree about the misconception regarding sides in the PL being able to walk the Championship, Villa have clearly shown that to be the case and that was after spending a fair whack improving their side. I think a fair few Championship sides comfortably outplayed Premier League sides in the cups this year, while those are one off games and the Championship side could be argued to be "more up for it" Huddersfield reserves got a goal against Man City's first team at the Etihad, in fact they put up far more of a fight than Sunderland did against MCFC at the weekend. I've often said this league is shite, and it is, but the bottom of the Premier League is also full of shite, I mean Hull looked to play spoiler against us and they were the PL side.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

The logic they apply means we could get promoted as they go down, sell all of our players and sign Shields' first team and they'd be superior to theirs as they'd be in the premier league

[David Kelly 1219]

I make it only 5 teams from the 18 that have been relegated between our two relegations have come straight back up and at least 2 teams have dropped down a further division (2 in Portsmouth's case).  There might be a lot of poor football played in the championship but it's clearly not easy to come straight back up.  And a lot of teams who haven't managed it have looked a lot better than they currently do.

[Howay 12496]

The logic they apply means we could get promoted as they go down, sell all of our players and sign Shields' first team and they'd be superior to theirs as they'd be in the premier league

Aye that's it in a nutshell really. Their performance this season is about on a par with what Aston Villa managed last season, I'm not sure how on Earth anyone could think without massive investment they would fare much better than Aston Villa. 

 

The funniest bit about their turnaround regarding how relegation might have them enjoying watching winning football again is it's far more likely they'd be struggling like fuck like Villa rather than looking like us or Brighton.

[The Fish 10686]

Aye good post Fish. I agree about the misconception regarding sides in the PL being able to walk the Championship, Villa have clearly shown that to be the case and that was after spending a fair whack improving their side. I think a fair few Championship sides comfortably outplayed Premier League sides in the cups this year, while those are one off games and the Championship side could be argued to be "more up for it" Huddersfield reserves got a goal against Man City's first team at the Etihad, in fact they put up far more of a fight than Sunderland did against MCFC at the weekend. I've often said this league is shite, and it is, but the bottom of the Premier League is also full of shite, I mean Hull looked to play spoiler against us and they were the PL side.

 

Absolutely. The only reason Villa weren't below Burnley, Middlesbrough and Hull last season is that they literally couldn't because of the nature of a fixed table. If the table was 44 teams strong, I don't think that Villa side would have been top half.

 

Burnley haven't overhauled their 1st team this season (I think there's 1 regular first team player that's new?) and they've been top half for much of the season.

 

They weren't inoculated against Championship Cooties once their promotion was confirmed. They didn't get hit by cosmic rays and become the mythical Premier League Players.

[Howay 12496]

I make it only 5 teams from the 18 that have been relegated between our two relegations have come straight back up and at least 2 teams have dropped down a further division (2 in Portsmouth's case).  There might be a lot of poor football played in the championship but it's clearly not easy to come straight back up.  And a lot of teams who haven't managed it have looked a lot better than they currently do.

Spot on, they're ignoring what a slog the league is. If you're a half decent side at this level 80% of the teams are going to park the bus and look to counter, breaking that type of opposition down (often) 2 times a week isn't easy even if the teams you're up against are weak.

[David Kelly 1219]

Spot on, they're ignoring what a slog the league is. If you're a half decent side at this level 80% of the teams are going to park the bus and look to counter, breaking that type of opposition down (often) 2 times a week isn't easy even if the teams you're up against are weak.

Aye, it's a tough league because of the nature of it, not because of the quality of the players in it.

[Howay 12496]

Absolutely. The only reason Villa weren't below Burnley, Middlesbrough and Hull last season is that they literally couldn't because of the nature of a fixed table. If the table was 44 teams strong, I don't think that Villa side would have been top half.

 

Burnley haven't overhauled their 1st team this season (I think there's 1 regular first team player that's new?) and they've been top half for much of the season.

 

They weren't inoculated against Championship Cooties once their promotion was confirmed. They didn't get hit by cosmic rays and become the mythical Premier League Players.

Aye that's it like. In much the same fashion Jack Colback wasn't ever a Premier League level player, and after relegation has shown he's probably not a Championship level player either.

Paul Dummett is a revelation though and I'll have nowt said about the lad, I've never seen a player love to defend so much that he's willing to simply give the ball right back to the opposition so that he is able to defend some more.

 

It's also worth pointing out that Burton Albion are currently out of the relegation spots, this means the mackems have a chance of playing the team they were all excited for us to be playing .

Edited March 6, 2017 by Howay

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

[StoneColdStephenIreland 74]

Paul Dummett is a revelation though and I'll have nowt said about the lad, I've never seen a player love to defend so much that he's willing to simply give the ball right back to the opposition so that he is able to defend some more.

.

:lol:

 

To guarantee safety they need 19 points from 11 games. Currently they sit on 19 points from 27

[Happy Face 29]

:lol:

 

To guarantee safety they need 19 points from 11 games. Currently they sit on 19 points from 27

They've got 8 points in the last 11 games.

 

They've got 11 left and need 6 just to get out of the relegation places as it stands!

[Tom 14011]

They're knackered like. They look like they're going through the motions rather than fighting it.

[Howay 12496]

They need 6 to be level on points with Palace but their goal difference is also -15 worse off than Palace .

 

I love that they got a bit excited after their 4-0 win over Palace, since then they've lost 3 on the bounce scoring none and conceding 8. What a complete and utter waste of space they are, well past time for them to be relegated from that league.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Howay

[Howmanheyman 32715]

If they weren't such a mess off the pitch they would have chance of regrouping, a chance, no guarantees. If you look at their squad, their external debts and the ingrained bitterness of their existence in the last few years which the derby and our relegation glossed over, then I think it's going to be at least a few years before the PL comes around again for them.

[Dr Gloom 21803]

They're fucked without the 6 points we've been gifting them in recent years

[The Fish 10686]

If they weren't such a mess off the pitch they would have chance of regrouping, a chance, no guarantees. If you look at their squad, their external debts and the ingrained bitterness of their existence in the last few years which the derby and our relegation glossed over, then I think it's going to be at least a few years before the PL comes around again for them.

 

Aside from the unlikely intervention of a billionaire Sunderland fan, their best hope is to strip the club back. They've a decent academy, by all accounts, and we've been shite at bringing through local kids, so focus on that. Get rid of the likes of Borini, Januzaj, Khazri, Kone, Manquillo, N'Dong. Phase out Cattermole, Larsson, O'Shea, etc.

 

Loan some kids from Premier League title chasers (Tammy Abraham), add experienced Championship stalwarts (Jordan Rhodes). Strengthen with Premier League quality in January if promotion looks very likely, buy promising youngster (Tom Cairney) if it's not assured. If they're promoted they should have a strong core which only needs a few additions, if they're not, they'd be odds-on for the following season.

 

Build bridges with the fans through community work, encourage "involvement" in decision making process, keep ticket prices reasonable etc. If they can get fans to turn up in similar numbers in the Championship as they have in the Premier League, that's a steady source of income.

 

If I couldn't get Rowett, or convince another promising coach to go to the Stadium of Light, I'd keep Moyes as I think he's a decent manager who was dealt a bum hand, let him build a club focussed on young local talent. Make plans for his long term replacement, a manager that can build on the defensive strength he's renowned for and add guile and adventure.

 

Fucking easy.

[Rayvin 5166]

All of that is going to be cut off at the knees by the reality that Short won't let them reinvest the full sum of funds raised from player sales. And even if he did, they'll get a combined sum of about £20m for the first six players you've mentioned. They'd have to sell Pickford as well, surely, so they can get something like £40m to spend.

 

Also, their scouting is an abomination. They're not going to buy anyone remotely decent, they never do.

[The Fish 10686]

All of that is going to be cut off at the knees by the reality that Short won't let them reinvest the full sum of funds raised from player sales. And even if he did, they'll get a combined sum of about £20m for the first six players you've mentioned. They'd have to sell Pickford as well, surely, so they can get something like £40m to spend.

 

Also, their scouting is an abomination. They're not going to buy anyone remotely decent, they never do.

 

That's why they should give the job, I'd tell him what's what.

 

(Mind I would be sorely tempted to sabotage the whole club in a petulant rage)

[Alex 34795]

That's why they should give the job, I'd tell him what's what.

 

(Mind I would be sorely tempted to sabotage the whole club in a petulant rage)

I'd wager you'd give him a jolly good talking to.

[The Fish 10686]

I'd wager you'd give him a jolly good talking to.

 

Ra-ther

[Alex 34795]

You'd make a ruddy good manager, David

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Good academy? The only good outfield player it's produced in recent memory is Henderson and that's going back some. Lately it's churning out shite like Watmore.

Edited March 7, 2017 by TheGingerQuiff

[The Fish 10686]

Good academy? The only good outfield player it's produced in recent memory is Henderson and that's going back some. Lately it's churning out shite like Watmore.

 

There's currently a few highly rated youngsters on the fringe.